Another article on abuse within BDSM (59)

I hear what you are saying. However, I disagree from the perspective that whenever you learn almost ANYTHING about BDSM, the information about duty of care, responsibility, importance of consent, etc. is there along with the technical information.

If one learns ropework, the emphasis is on safety and circulation and checking for cramps and the tension and safewords and safety shears, releases, etc.

If one looks at BDSM websites they are full of the value of submission, the mental importance, etc. (OK, not the male directed ball busting type sites, granted, but guys don't go there looking to learn about BDSM anyway).

I think that just as a submissive has a responsibility to look out for their own safety, the Dominant has the responsibility to learn how to do it properly. I also think that BOTH of those parties KNOW full well they need to do it, but the blood rushes in excitement and they stop thinking properly. If they don't think properly....well, I am really sorry. It is their responsibility. In real life, I paid thousands of pounds to become a hypnotherapist so I could do kink hypnosis and not worry about frying someone's brain. If you are going to take the role of a Dominant, you have to accept the responsibility with it.

While I might not consider someone who jumps in with no knowledge a "predator", I don't think they are much better - because they are planning to play without due consideration of the safety of their play-partner.

And rereading the first part, I totally disagree. Just because a man has a woman restrained does not mean he had do whatever he wants. Before any scene, limits are discussed. I find it difficult to believe people would "forget" to talk about sex as a limit. Therefore, it would probably have been discussed (as in the concept of safe sex, etc), a safeword should have been given and it is clear. Ok, it is not ALWAYS black and white, but in a lot of cases it is clear. Those are the limits. That is the safeword. Consent does not go beyond those boundaries. I'm sorry to be blunt, but I think if someone gets so "enthusiastic" they forget the concept of consent, they are not a Dominant but something far more unsavory. I don't think that has to do with education but with sociopathy.

@Play_Space - Next party is Friday, February 3, 2012 and the first Friday of every month!
Road Trip to the Sea!!! The October trip has tJust elapsed...More info here.

Edited 31 Jan 12, 8:34 PM by Ama_Sidero

I agree, but am not sure that some of the emotional and psychological aspects are focussed on as much as the physical, at least in my opinion, but maybe I'm wrong.

Yes, but I tend to feel (and this just my view, so I may be wrong) that they come largely from a perspective that consent has been given, and less about the importance of assuring it's not only there in the first place but, just as importantly, remains throughout.

The value and importance of submission, along with consent, may be addressed, but less so the value of how and when someone submits and consents, and the fact that they can withdraw it any time.

I'm sure there also plenty of guys who don't learn about all the aspects of bdsm, from both sides, and are more focussed on what's in it for them.

Of course it's easy to say that they're then not proper doms, and rightly so, but that doesn't mean they intend to cause harm, nor does it prevent some poor soul ending up at the mercy of their ignorance.

Places like IC probably represent a minority. Check out somewhere like collarme and you'll see blissful ignorance on both sides of the fence. Some with malicious intent, but others with youthful enthusiasm and a total lack of knowledge of the implications of what they hope to engage in.

I fully agree, but I was talking from the perspective of what is, and not what should be. The reality is that some don't think properly, in the way that some men might not think about contraception. It's all very well saying that it's their responsibility, which of course it is, but that doesn't do much good for any potential victim if they haven't shouldered it fully, or don't even understand it. As such all I'm suggesting is that perhaps more could be done to make those responsibilities more clear to some people.

And if they don't understand that consideration then they aren't the ones who suffer, so surely it makes sense to emphasise those areas more fully. Sure, blame can no doubt be accurately apportioned afterwards, but it's got to be better to try and prevent it where possible beforehand?

I'm not sure what you diagree with as I began the first part by saying: "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"

But not everyone uses a safeword, or are able to in the heat of the moment. Further, they may have consented to something at the beginning but changed their mind half way through.

Supposing someone consents to sex and then, for whatever reason, changes their mind? What if they didn't want a safeword or found they couldn't utter it? A fully responsible dom would still be looking for signs that things were ok.

It's far better to drill into people that someone who likes being restrained and then taken sexually, whilst helpless, can still have a change of heart partway through, than have some, out of ignorance, think that once consent is given at the beginning there's no turning back because that's what she asked for.

Not all withdrawal of consent is loud and obvious kicking and screaming, and can just as easily be frightened acceptance and a wish for it to end as quickly as possible. If people were taught more emphatically that consent can be withdrawn at any time, even after it's given and even in the potentially confusing areas of consensual non consent, then they may take more care to look for the signs, and be less able to shrug their shoulders afterwards and say "well she told me to tie her up and fuck because she likes being forced".

If it were so obviously taught then perhaps fewer victims would feel they have no option but to blame themselves, or try and brush it off as their own fault for being somehow "inconsistent".

It's not always black and white but yes, in many cases consent is clear, and those who go beyond that are quite possibly sociopathic.

However, I ended my post by saying that it might only make a small difference. Perhaps in cases where it isn't black white, where a little education about the nuances of both consent and submission, along with the consequences of being blind to them, might cause some to think a little more carefully about what they're doing, and not cause someone else to be a victim, however unintentionally.

Yes, I do agree with you in all your previous comments. I think it's just beyond my conception that people would do serious BDSM without doing a bit of research. That is just like climbing Everest in your trainers on the spur of the moment or deciding to take up brain surgery as a hobby.

But I think it is handy to use as an excuse. "Well I didn't know it was such an emotional thing". Because as jaded and cynical as I am, I really can't understand someone NOT knowing that it is a mutual mental game (unless they have watched too much Dexter - wait - even he has some emotional intelligence) and that it is something that needs to be done responsibly.

You are right, though, in that it should be easy enough to set up learning for newbies. That raises the question, though - if they WANTED to learn, couldn't they have already done it just by doing a little bit of reading and thinking? Wouldn't they have already learned that they need to learn more? Wouldn't they already be on that track?

You can lead a horse to water, but....

@Play_Space - Next party is Friday, February 3, 2012 and the first Friday of every month!
Road Trip to the Sea!!! The October trip has tJust elapsed...More info here.

Edited 31 Jan 12, 10:07 PM by Ama_Sidero

"I can't tell if you're playing some kind of feminazi mind fuck game on me or if you're trying to seduce me." -Sex and Death 101

Yeah.

Have you been there, done that?

Do you know how much pressure it takes to get a paedophile, or someone who beats their women up in domestic violence, into an kind of therapy?

Because what we're talking about is a direct analogy, and possibly someone who does what we're talking about does the other things too, (though I've never seen proof of that link).

The answer is, 'far more pressure than we can ever exert as a community'.

All the pressure that policemen, courts, prison, social workers, probation staff and everyone else involved in the process can bring to bear isn't usually enough.

I'm no plaster saint.

I've made mistakes and screwed up, sometimes pissed people off, or done things they may think abusive.

If you ask me about those incidents, I'll be honest, 'fess up where I think I made mistakes.

I'll debate with you without ad hominem attacks about other aspects.

Maybe, if you're not storing up ammunition for a personal attack, tell you what I'll do to avoid making them again.

But we're not talking about folk like me, we're talking about people who 'know' they're doing it right.

They will truly appear to believe that anyone who says otherwise is malicious, naive, uninformed, mischievous or any other grounds they can bring to avoid confronting reality.

Then they'll use any tactic they can deploy, including intimidation, violence, bullying, character assassination, and worse to 'prove' they're right.

Yes, at Tawsingham we're kind-of providing a place like a big old Victorian gentleman's club with big leather seats, brandy and dungeon.

But sadly, few of those who really need that education will come.

Like any other training, those who need it most, will be least likely to volunteer.

Tawsingham, where everyone can be whomsoever they want to be @Tawsingham_Feudal guy@tawse.com PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100

Edited 4 Feb 12, 10:02 AM by sirguym

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Then perhaps he might re-phrase that: The reason not to mistreat people might be that, as a direct result, bigger people might mistreat the offender.

Quite a lot of people refrain from doing stuff because they don't want to have the consequences.

Cultivate a reputation for excentricity, then you can do pretty much as you damn well like.

Edited 8 Feb 12, 4:33 PM by Ishmael

This raises another point; I think that, personally, there is a duty of the scene to protect people and listening to these people and ASKING QUESTIONS is critical to protecting EVERYONE.

Two personal examples without going into details to protect the innocent:

I have protected a friend before by ringing the alarm bells for her and due to my state of mind a few years back been on the opposite side of the scale.

Unfortunately the way the vice versa incident was handled was handled badly. At the time I was naive but no-one was willing to challenge me as to whether or not I was in over my head, as such something went wrong and both of us ended up hurt.

If they had challenged me then maybe everything would have ended differently and actually it would have made me happier to be challenged over my skills.

The good news surrounding the first example is that after researching under her request she never tried to contact the guy again and as such the questions she asked protected her.

This isn't just protection of the victim but can also be for the protection of the other person as well. That incident scars me to this date as my failure and as such I can no longer trust those people and it makes it harder to trust people in the future.

Intellectualise all you like, on a board such as _informed consent_ we'll all agree to stop at safewords and take some degree of care in what we do. There's a lot of other people who share the scene as well, though. We can't pretend they don't exist, or that we'll ever be rid of them.