"New" Labels for Age Old Activities ? (34)

Now I fully understand the activities being discussed along with the dynamics, relationships and interactions taking place with these .... and in a way that is what has caused my question. I understand them because I have witnessed them for the last (almost) three decades. They are nothing new and are activities and relationship dynamics that folks have been enjoying for probably an awful lot longer.

So my question is not to understand or have explained any of the above ... it is asking why the need to separate out certain activities and dynamics ? Why add even more labels to the ever growing and more confusing pot we have ?

Does the severity or brutality or "edginess" need it to be pulled away from other levels of interaction and into its own little box ?

Does it matter if consent relates to individual activities or an entire relationship dynamic ?

We wonder why people new to all this get confused ... look blankly when trying to work out the difference between violent/edge play and that which is "Ultra" ... Wonder how to negotiate consent given it can be termed "non consent"

Couldn't we just have a simpler life by saying we are adults that consent to engage in varying degrees of interactions/activities ?

Splitting it up further is simply defining detail and degree which is of absolutely no importance at all .... We have understood the risks of what we do .... we have accepted and consented to what we do ... isn't that all we need to know ?

"You and you alone make me feel that I am alive. Other men it is said have seen angels, but I have seen thee and thou art enough." ~ George Moore

But on the other hand, i think labels can be useful, as can the development of what they mean. 'I do BDSM' doesn't tell people much by itself, for example.

x

Now where were we? Ah, yes - abject humiliation!
@Modified_Bodies
@O_and_P
@LGB_Forum

As a general point, I think it's useful to have words for distinct concepts especially when we're trying to discuss all this stuff in a limited text medium. So I think the relatively recent use of "Ultraviolence" (which was originally used in the early 1960s of course) in BDSM is a useful way of distinguishing from a term like "Edge Play", which frequently has connotations of extra caution and even deliberation because of the extra risk involved. The feel that Ultraviolence enthusiasts aim for is anything but caution, so there's a useful distinction being represented with a different term.

:T:

www.tanos.org.uk
www.bridgewood.org.uk
The Warehouse: pony play etc, Sat 7 Apr 2012, Exodus, Birmingham

Some of us indulge in violent/edge play ... I think that is a fairly well defined label in itself .. so why sub-divide into Ultra and I guess therefore "normal" violent/edge play ? Does the degree really matter to need a separate label ?

Same I feel with consent ... I see it as binary ... it is given or it is not given. I do not see it matters if it is given 5 minutes before a discussed and arranged one off play or 6 months/10 years ago as an agreement in a relationship that one partner may "do as they wish"

And they seem to also be relatively "new terms" .. they were certainly not around 30 years ago .. 20 or 10 years ago ... so I was curious as to why now such activities need to be given new labels to split them from the generality of the group they fall into ?

Hope that made sense and explained where I am coming from a bit better

"You and you alone make me feel that I am alive. Other men it is said have seen angels, but I have seen thee and thou art enough." ~ George Moore

But perhaps those who don't see it like that like those labels.

My uncle fishes. I have NO knowledge of fishing at all, so for me, he's into fishing. To his wife he's into fly fishing and no doubt to his fly fishing mates he's a xyzflyer. I guess labels are needed with as much depth and description as those who are involved in the activity, or discussion around it.

x

Now where were we? Ah, yes - abject humiliation!
@Modified_Bodies
@O_and_P
@LGB_Forum

I understand the point on the difference between Violent and Edge play ... But I still don't quite see why to say "I enjoy edge play" is not enough ? Why "UltraEdge" ? the same with Violent play .. Why is that not enough of a label ? Why add the extra dimension of Ultra ? What is the actual difference between Violent and Ultraviolent ? ... Does the level or brutality need to be defined within the same genre ? isn't edge play edge play regardless of the level ?

And I see consent as the same ... For me an activity has consent and that is all I need to know ... I do not understand why some activities need a separate "type of consent" or definition of consent ... Is there a difference between me consenting to someone giving me 20 strokes of a cane or doing what they wish ? .. Are not both a person consenting to something happening ?

With the fishing example I can understand that .... but I would equate that to saying I had a violet impact play session ... I had a violent impact play session with leather implements ... I had a violent impact play session with leather studded paddles made last year ... all descriptions but at the end of the day still violent impact play ... would anyone use the term "Ultra Fishing" ?

I understand the need to have labels (much as I hate them) but I think in some areas we are reaching (or have reached) levels of sub-division that are starting to confuse things more than explain them

((Edited to pick up mia's response)

"You and you alone make me feel that I am alive. Other men it is said have seen angels, but I have seen thee and thou art enough." ~ George Moore

Edited 27 Jan 12, 10:10 PM by Elohims_jay

How many times have you seen the rape scene in "A Clockwork Orange" and been reminded of an edge play scene in a club? How many scenes in clubs have reminded you of the rape scene in "A Clockwork Orange"? (Or of one like The Killer Inside Me for that matter, but the term "Ultraviolence" explicitly references "A Clockwork Orange".)

It's pretty much that lack of connection that prompted the creation of the Ultraviolence group and the term's systematic use to try to capture that general feeling, as I understand it.

:T:

www.tanos.org.uk
www.bridgewood.org.uk
The Warehouse: pony play etc, Sat 7 Apr 2012, Exodus, Birmingham

Edited 27 Jan 12, 10:11 PM by Tanos

I feel that it matters quite a lot when looking for a partner in a relationship sense.

I wouldn't have the tolerance, patience or inclination to seek consent immediately before every activity within a relationship, but some on the receiving end may want that.

As such it's an important distinction to make upfront.

30 years ago there was no internet, and as such people had less choice as to who they might engage with, and so probably had to compromise in some aspects, as people do in lots of relationships.

With the rise of easy and mass communication, those with niche (or sub set) interests can now quite easily find others who share those specfic interests. Therefore it's only to be expected that those interets will be become more visible as people are able to narrow their own criteria to only what they want, as opposed to getting it as part of a wider package.

It's not much different in that regard to a lot of things as people are given more choice. 30 years ago if you wanted a coffee, it was white or black, now the choice is virtually endless.

I find it quite helpful to see how people define things and compare my own thoughts, but that may be because I don't have much experience.

But … Yeah I always have one of them lol

I admit I have never seen that particular type of interaction at a club (but have in private) which I suspect is more due to the rape aspect than the violence … However I have seen some fairly brutal physical impact scenes including punching (body & face), split lips, kicking, cutting, etc This has been within the last few months as well as 20 plus years ago.

I can also understand a reluctance to interact this way “in public” because it is rare for whatever reasons. Maybe not wishing to shock those that have not encountered it before? Or not wish to have it stopped by someone that does not understand the dynamic going on? Himself and I play very very differently in private and there are things we indulge that we would probably never do in a club because we would not want to “scare the locals” so to speak.

What I still struggle to understand though is why another term for it ? When I was a lass ((winks)) it was simply explained that some people liked to “play hard” but it was all good and fun and consented to. I believe the emphasis should be on educating folks that is it all perfectly normal and everyday and acceptable and nothing to be scared of.

Absolutely it is an important thing to discuss and agree upfront. Consent is probably the most fundamental part of what we do and how it is given and understood is a vital concept. But does the fact you agree to a “one off” relationship level of consent require a different “label” to consent given for each play session ? Each is a perfectly acceptable and normal dynamic … each is nothing more than consent given for a type of interaction. Again shouldn't we concentrate on explaining and educating that as long as there is consent then the actual activity/interaction is of no-ones else concern ? (insert usual disclaimer about as long as it is legal and stuff and yaddah yaddah)

I agree on the increased choice in coffee. But 30 years ago the activities and dynamics now described as Ultraviolence, UltraEdge, CNC existed … they were perfectly normal things that people did … not everyone .. probably still a minority … but still just a different (harder) level and not requiring their own label. Again just the odd explanation here and there to people as they first encountered it all.

Again in a way I agree. Labels most definitely have their place in providing an easy way to describe our individual lifestyles. But the point I am trying to make is how many labels and definitions do we need ? Do we not reach a point where there are so many labels and sub-divisions that we move from easy and convenient to confusing minefield ?

Maybe it is because I also get the feeling that these labels regarding consent, violence and edge play come across almost as a justification rather than a definition. Because we "play harder", "break limits", "ignore safe words", "don't negotiate" ... then by giving them a label we give them validation .... something we should not have to do to those within this "lifestyle".

Whether you hit someone with a fist or a flogger, if you look for consent each time or know you can do what you want when you want … the issue surely lies with those that do not understand to be educated in the normality of it all rather then make them seem somehow different and confusing with new and extra labels ?

"You and you alone make me feel that I am alive. Other men it is said have seen angels, but I have seen thee and thou art enough." ~ George Moore

Edited 28 Jan 12, 12:50 AM by Elohims_jay

Ok, so there's a distinction between styles of play right there - so great a distinction that you've never seen one style in public even though you've seen it in private. Some people find it useful to give names to signpost significant distinctions to make it easier to talk about all this. I don't think that's at all surprising: it's how human languages develop.

One of the immediate uses of the Ultraviolence term was to try to signpost the Dystopia events as events where it would be the safety police BS that wouldn't be tolerated. (That's the easy bit compared to making such scenes come about on the night of course.)

The very fact that people are using these terms shows a need for them.

This is an evolutionary process of terms coming and going, surviving or not. Who talks about "Love Bondage" or "SMBD" now? Those terms have died out because others were sufficient. "Consensual non-consent" is still here 20 years later, and I suspect "Ultraviolence" will too, but it's not something we need to stress about any more than the Academie Francaise really needs to try steering the French language.

:T:

www.tanos.org.uk
www.bridgewood.org.uk
The Warehouse: pony play etc, Sat 7 Apr 2012, Exodus, Birmingham