Hi, I'm not a policeman.  (42)

Oh, I have no doubt that you, personally, will have strong opinions on this (although, to be fair, Syria goes a bit beyond spying on its internal dissidents and I suspect that sexual relationships between torturers and prisoners are clearly in the non-consensual category without the need to fudge the issue).

No, what shocks and appals me is the relative lack of reaction in the press/the public about it. I mean, sure, you got to keep an eye on 'extreme'/single cause groups - it's not unknown for a fringe within that fringe to move towards terrorist acts (murders of doctors practising abortions, acts on facilities where animal testing is carried out etc).

But people willing and trained to go into deep cover should be used on more obviously menacing groups. Surely, a couple of phone taps would be enough to deal with the potential for rogue activists.

There is no right and wrong when it comes to sex ; only informed consent...

Ok, so let me see if I understand what you're saying here.

When you say ' produce from these unions ' you mean the children fathered by these undercover policemen ? As @littlenic says - what evidence is there to say that they would grow up to be amoral criminals rather than brain surgeons etc ?

You then talk about the state chasing after individuals like this - presumably you're now talking about the undercover police, rather than their children ( again, as @ethics_gradient says, your appalling grammar means this isn't clear ) and say that you doubt the state will get any ( child support ) from them as they will be unemployed with bad references .

Have I understood you correctly ?

If so, then I think ( yet again ) you're missing the point by a country mile . The issue here is whether it is ethical for an undercover police officer to have a relationship with someone who doesn't know his true identity - and whether that therefore constitutes a lack of consent .

Nothing to do with whether the resulting offspring will turn into delinquents or whether the csa will be able to pursue the fathers for support .

I wouldn't say I'm arrogant, but Superman has pictures of me on his pyjamas.

Edited 24 Jan 12, 7:28 PM by AshUK

And on that note, back to topic.

No I don't. But I do think its a sliding scale. One of the objections I have to the current state of legal definitions is the rather binary 'all or nothing' definition of rape (Ken Clark-isms etc). I do think there is wrong doing into misleading someone into sex, and that could range from failing to pay a prostitute (one of the common examples), or as here, deliberately lying about your identity (I wouldn't include omission, only significant misleading with intent). So if you equate rape with GBH, there should IMO, be sexual offences equating to common assault and ABH, and this kind of deception should fit in there somewhere. It avoids diminishing the word rape.

With regards to the example, if the the pair genuinely fell in love, then no one would be making a complaint so its a moot point.

I don't think the police should be engaging in spying activity, unless there is a specific serious crime being investigated - 'serious' is generally not activism unless someone has already been murdered, assaulted etc, or if there is a suspicion of a planned crime the risk is one that could cost many lives. Large organised crime syndicates, and terrorism type stuff, and even then, sleeping with the enemy should be well off the acceptability scale.

And all men kill the thing they love, By all let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!

Edited 22 Jan 12, 3:09 PM by Attitude_Adjuster

Have there been organised murders of doctors, or has it always been a lone nutcase?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Ge...

I'm not sure I think "the risk of" (property) attacks on animal testing places is sufficiently worrisome to justify spying on people (threats against individuals perhaps would be, but the act of threatening someone is a crime committed not a potential crime).

And all men kill the thing they love, By all let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!

Rape is a binary because someone consents or they don't. Even if you say "I wouldn't have consented if ...", the point is, you still consented. For these other things, I disagree that it's a sliding scale with rape at one end - rather, these are different kind of things altogether. They may be unethical, but I would worry about these things being illegal.

Even if someone does mislead with information about themselves just because they want sex from the outset, I don't see how that should be illegal. People should be free to consent or not consent to sex, but I'm not sure there law should be there so you can attach a whole load of conditions to it.

And indeed, since that is already illegal, we don't need a new crime for that (it's only an issue if one thinks that not paying a prostitute should be punished far more severely, i.e., as rape rather than a form of theft, but we both agree this shouldn't be the case).

Sign the Consenting Adult Action Network's statement

Edited 22 Jan 12, 4:24 PM by emark

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Edited 22 Jan 12, 4:11 PM by Empress_Martine

And all men kill the thing they love, By all let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!

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Edited 7 Mar 12, 6:18 AM by Empress_Martine

@Romola has pronounced.

Really? To me, it is a difference of category. Chalk and cheese spring to mind.