CNC vs POBSC (79)

The fascinating thing about genuine consensual non consent is the way that people react to seeing consensually non contented actions in public, eg. at a club...

If it's consensual non consent and the sub appears to be alright with the fact it's happening and enjoying it - you're gold.

If it's consensual non consent and the sub genuinely isn't happy it's happening, then all hell will break loose and people are likely to step in - particularly if it's a Dom & femsub interaction.

Consensual non consent is a phrase that Dom/mes use to help submissives feel that it makes no difference what they want and to make it more real.

The fact is, it does matter and in reality Doms know and work within the boundaries of whats OK to do. If they force something which the other person GENUINELY doesn't want they'll face the concequences.

Consensual non consent only works when everything the Dom chooses to do is consensual. Even if the sub is pushing themselves to do something beyond their typical limits, they're consensually choosing to do it...

Patrick
IndelibleMarker

So D/s is dominance and submission. One person leading and one following. One in control, one being controlled. With consent it works wonderfully. With no consent it is bullying or abuse. With consensual non consent it is just another tool in the bag - it's not essential to the set up and is certainly not the same thing.

Erm, what? If the sub is enjoying it, how is there any element of non-consent? How and why would you not consent to something you're enjoying? As for the other, well that's not true either. There are many places where screams/pleas/crying/excessive force may bring in the DMs, but in some places or places where the DMs know you then you can still do a cnc scene and it's ok. I know this cos we had one last week. Awful at the time - delicious afterwards.

I think it's a phrase used to describe a state of non-consent where consent has been given at some point prior to the event. It's not plain old consent, as it isn't someone agreeing to something at the time and it isn't non-consent as it's not going against someone who has always and is likely to always have refused to go through the said thing.

Whilst i do think that doms have to be careful they don't tread into basic 'non-consent' (You can do owt to me, except needles. Cool. Stabby stab. ARGH. For example.) But the idea is they do force something and it is something the other genuinely doesn't want, otherwise it's just consent.

Might make more sense if it read:

'Consent only works when everything the Dom chooses to do is consensual. Even if the sub is pushing themselves to do something beyond their typical limits, they're consensually choosing to do it...'

x

Now where were we? Ah, yes - abject humiliation!
@Modified_Bodies
@O_and_P
@LGB_Forum

I'm using my feelings on consensual non consent for the comparison - in that consensual non consent is always consensual. It's something which seems to be used more now in the absence of a D/s relationship and more for random play - that's my opinion on what I've witnessed.

With the theory of true consensual non consent - whether or not the submissive is enjoying it is irrelevant to whether it is consensual. By that token, consensual non consent it something happening all the time, whether enjoyed or not.

Also, I agree and I've done them myself - I'm specifically thinking of a few situations which have come up in the grapevine about various people of late which were consensual non consent dynamics, but the sub maintained afterwards that they weren't happy with it - it was random play, which was one major factor that exacerbates those problems mind. The point being, that the consensual non-consent that you mentioned you did a week ago went just great, because you look back fondly. But that's not always the case... And when it's not, it's the Dom's fault. Your Dom/me, I'm assuming, knew you well enough to know that you would react positively about it later.

Yes, you did word that much better than me! The key point I was making though, which you highlighted nicely with your brief needle analogy, is that the Dom has to choose the things that are, or be confident that they would be, consented to by the submissive... Which somewhat negates the whole concept of consensual non consent because their choices remain constrained. The defining feature of CNC is that the Dom makes an educated decision to push a boundary, rather than discuss it beforehand. The problems only appear when they push the wrong boundary too hard, even if only by mistake - and if they do... That's when all hell breaks loose.

Patrick
IndelibleMarker

My goal - to save women from nature (Dior)
Follow me on twitter: @belasarius99

This sums it up for me quite nicely I feel. There is something he enjoys, that I absolutely hate. I've tried my hardest to get some enjoyment from it, or even find a way to "enjoy" the memory of it afterwards, but I can't. I just plain hate it.

During the act itself I'll beg that he stops, I sob and cry, and I genuinely detest every moment of it. Those feelings are completely real and as much as I try not to let them show (I can be ever so slightly stubborn about crying) I just can't help it.

The key point for me was something he brought up this weekend though. He said if he'd stopped when I'd been begging and crying, I would've felt afterwards like I'd failed. He's completely right. I want him to be able to do what he wants, even if I find it incredibly difficult. If he stops purely because I hate it, then I feel like I'm in control, and that just doesn't work for me. I also do feel like I've let him down if he can't do something he enjoys.

I guess I've just never thought of that as CNC until now.

If experienced BDSMers watching cannot tell the difference between CNC and abuse how can a court of law? It is very risky ground for the Dom.

Well luckily most BDSMers, on this thread at least, do seem to be able to see the difference, which is good, especially for actual victims of abuse.

x

Now where were we? Ah, yes - abject humiliation!
@Modified_Bodies
@O_and_P
@LGB_Forum

The fact that it is being tolerated for the sake of the relationship means that on a purely technical level, and viewed from the outside, it is no different from abuse.

Abuse however is not always the act in itself, but is as much about it's intention beforehand and how it's perceived, not just during but also afterwards. In that sense it's not so different to many other activities. After all if you tie someone up and fuck them while they struggle, then when you've finished you have the aftermath. One person could say that it was the hottest thing they've ever experienced and another could say you raped them. It would be just as difficult for a court of law to decide.

The differentiating factor therefore exists in the mind of the submissive, and whether they feel that they and the relationship are somehow stronger or enhanced for the experience. It's whether they feel happy and content after the fact, or whether they simply feel used and exploited. As such it's the doms responsibility to shape, anticipate and manage that perception, as well as to continually read it and act accordingly.

So it is risky ground for a dom, as he needs to be reasonably sure of what that the reaction might be afterwards. But isn't that entirely the difference between being a good dom and just some abusive idiot who seizes any opportunity to take advantage? Isn't the ability to know what that reaction will be precisely the level of skill and expertise that a dom strives for, and so when he has it, is it not natural to want to have the freedom to excercise it? Isn't the ultimate power to say, "put yourself entirely in my hands and I will take you places you've never been before, but all the while will keep you safe?" Isn't that an ideal that many people, both dom and sub, strive for, which CNC puts on the table?

It's then not sufficient to just accept a subs word that you can do what you like. You have to make some effort to try and be sure that they mean it, know what it means, and can handle the often intense and conflicting emotions that might be aroused afterwards. This is why I don't see CNC as some sort of carte blanche for a dom to just have at it and do as he pleases. Instead I see it as an ultimate expression of trust, in which a far greater level of responsibilty is required by the dom. This for me is what makes it so powerful. The apparent freedom it provides carries with it just as much of a restriction in the form of the added responsibility, and so it balances out.

Sure a dom can just say well you gave me blanket consent and, under the circumstances, a sub who felt it went too far would probably just chalk it down to experience and take some of the blame. But I don't want anyone to feel that they were abused or exploited, regardless of whether they do anything about it or not. As such the measure for me is whether any activity leaves two people feeling that they have somehow been brought closer together and not driven further apart.

This is where it's entirely encumbant upon the dom to know and understand, not only his own needs and desires, but also those of his submissive. It's utterly selfish to say that you have to put up with x in return for y, unless you know that the other person can not just tolerate x, but also handle it, emotionally as well as physically, and ultimately feel better for it as a part of y.

In my opinion CNC is a better, more deeply fulfilling way to manage a relationship, as it means the dom always has to think and be mindful of the sub. It not only provides absolute power and total control, but also removes the safety net (from the dom) of one off and individual consent, which can sometimes lead to complacency on the part of the dom, and a feeling of too much control on the part of the sub.

Accordingly I do believe that it removes consent, even though blanket consent has been given. As without that overall consent, some things might well not be consented to. Perhaps though it may be better described as accepted non consent for mutual benefit, as whilst some things might not be consented to, they are accepted as part of the overall relationship, but with the caveat that it's purely on the undertanding that they will ultimately enhance that relationship for the benefit of both parties.

I think it's very different from staying with an abusive partner. Good grief.

Acceptance is a good word, as @Abraxus said. For example, today I knew I was to receive 6 strokes of the heavy tawse on each hand as a punishment.

I wanted to be there for the session, but was sick with fear about that and hoped it would be over quickly. If he is punishing me in that genuine sense (which rarely happens) he gives it full welly, so no question of going easy. Which I knew.

I in no way consented and asked him to let me off some at least, as I know I can't take more than 3 without wanting to puke. Nothing doing. When he said the first one didn't count because I moved afterwards, I became close to hysterical, and felt I might faint with fear. He made me put my hand out, while I cried and hyperventilated and the pain of each one was just awful.

I accepted it, because I had to, because I'm his slave and he required it. I couldn't possibly say I consented though. But it was so incredibly intense that afterwards I was glad he'd made me, kind of. God knows why. But if he relied on my consent we'd never get to places like that!!

Mostly I just see consent as irrelevant so it's not an issue, as indeed it wasn't today. Just something required of me so had to be endured. Makes life satisfyingly simple. But I guess if you don't feel that way no amount of explaining will convince you.