This post is on the D/s & M/s web board.
| 18 Jan 12, 2:27 PM custardpowder UK(CB), 8 mths   |
Souci_X Thank you so much for your reply. It just about hits the nail squarely on the head
The Masochist desires to experience stronger sensations, but desires that it should be inflicted with Love. The Sadist desires to inflict stronger sensations, but desires that it should be felt as Love. -- Anonymous | |||||
| 18 Jan 12, 8:38 PM Belasarius UK(M), 8 yrs      |
That's what happens on the outside of our relationship (her limits describe the outside of our envelope), so I guess it must be true. BUT... ..,If something is agreed, then she permanently loses the right to refuse. For example, I have her when and how I want, whether she likes it or not: her consent to that is permanent. There are things we do she finds genuinely upsetting and where I might have her consent, but my use of that consent is never welcome. This makes her submission feel real. We've tested this to destruction a couple of times and managed to fit it all back together. I dont plan for that to happen again anytime soon. But she knows that I could not continue in a relationship with her if she were not my girl and she knows if she were to walk away it would destroy me. And we have the love thing as well as the D/s thing. They are separate, essential and indivisible.
My goal - to save women from nature (Dior) | |||||
| 22 Jan 12, 9:31 PM Dolly_Molly UK, 4 mths |
Why did she consent to something 'once-upon-a-time' if she finds it upsetting? Is she ever allowed to take back something she's consented to if she changes her mind? Don't you even have a safety word? Molly x | |||||
| 23 Jan 12, 8:24 AM Ms_Valentine UK, 9 yrs |
Some people like to feel out of control, vulnerable, at the whim and wish of another and so they consent to a relationship ( most likely with no safeword) and willingly accept the things which 'upset' 'distress' 'scare' them as part of that relationship knowing it is a loving and caring one where they will come to no lasting harm. The relationship is exactly what they want, even if small individual parts of it may be hard to take, so they accept the relationship as a whole entity and love it for all its parts. Much like many other relationships if one thinks of it. An awful lot of us especially in long term D/s relationships don't actually have safewords. Brutality is not a natural consequence of no safewords. Safeguards are in place even if safewords are not. Dominant partner in an FLR with @paulss | |||||
| 23 Jan 12, 12:04 PM Dolly_Molly UK, 4 mths |
Doesn't that leave the sub open to be manipulated into agreeing to be abused? I am sure this is not the case here, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. Taking away the persons ability to say no if they want to is quite a slippery slope... subs/slaves should be able to say 'no' if they really, really want to. Right? Molly x | |||||
| 23 Jan 12, 12:26 PM mia  UK(M), 4 yrs     |
Not always, not in every relationship. @Ms_Valentine put it perfectly in my mind. For some, true freedom to be themselves comes from being enslaved to another's wishes. These sorts of lasting arrangements (rather than individual sm scenes, which may or may not have elements of cnc) must be entered into with great levels of trust. The sub must trust themself to have good judgement and the dom must be trusted that they understand the sub. The dom must also trust that this is indeed what the sub wants, so they don't risk damaging them, etc. As to the OP, this was a question i used to ask myself a lot. Who really has the power? I think in many sm scenes and some D/s interactions/relationships that the power shifts. If you're not in heavy bondage then you can remove yourself from the situation physically (even if mentally this may be difficult/impossible, depending on your relationship to the top). If your top is to be trusted and you have a safeword, then you can stop the proceedings physically. But you highlighted yourself that sometimes saying 'No' feels difficult or upsetting, so mentally this balance is shifted. If someone off the street asked you to do something degrading, you'd ignore them or walk away. If the person who you admire/trust/submit to asks you, then the answer is likely to be different. Ask yourself why. BDSM is about many things and one of the most interesting things about it is the shift of power and the power balances and imbalances in different set ups and relationships. For some, the ultimate goal is for one person to have all the power, for others the perfect balance of power is essential and for many, the shift of power is exciting and vital to their enjoyment. No one way is correct and you might get to experience and enjoy a range of these power balances. Whatever you decide, or find yourself twingled up in (i have decided i like this phrase, even if it isn't real or if it means something else completely) then make sure you are honest about it with yourself and with those you are involved with as it can be really painful to think one thing and then realise it's something completely different. x Now where were we? Ah, yes - abject humiliation! | |||||
| 23 Jan 12, 1:33 PM Ms_Valentine UK, 9 yrs |
Why so? Before getting into a CNC a sub has every opportunity to decide what kind of bdsm relationship they want. Who can force them into a CNC? You cannot legislate for the tiny amount of mentally incompetent or the exceptionally easy to manipulate due to chronic low self esteem or other mental/emotional dysfunction. There will always be 'victims' and those people would be just as easily manipulated and abused in non kinky relationships. We have to stop always talking about our consensual relationships in terms of worst case scenarios. It makes no sense and doesn't alter the fact the huge majority who live in CNC bdsm relationships or use CNC in their play are happy to do it, enjoy all that is involved and trust/love/admire/respect and care for the other person in the CNC. Consent given at any time should be respected, just as much as what is being consented to. Those who enter into CNC know what the are doing and will, if they are people like us, you know people with brains, common sense, good mental health etc, enter into fairly extreme bdsm relationships only with those they trust and have confidence in. Who are all these loonies who get 'manipulated into agreeing to be abused'? A proportion of all types of relationship will turn out to be a bad choice for some but more often a good choice for many. Regarding the ability for a slave to say no. It is simple, if they want to be able to say no, do not enter into a relationship which is based on the very fact the give up that ability. I cannot see anything weird, dangerous or prone to manipulation in that simple choice they can make. We all have to take personal responsibility for ourselves and our decisions. If a slave feels they are no longer 'internally enslaved' and want to ask for release, they may do so. I am sure most owners or Masters/Mistresses would not want a slave who had abandoned the promises they made. Most slaves could not imagine wanting to be released as they love their life, including the challenging aspects, as it the life THEY chose.
Dominant partner in an FLR with @paulss Edited 23 Jan 12, 1:34 PM by Ms_Valentine | |||||
| 23 Jan 12, 5:00 PM chartreuse UK(BA), 6 yrs  |
When a submissive doesn't do as asked, when he says a plain "No" and no reasonable explanation is forthcoming. I don't always say what my thoughts are, I won't force the issue (no submissive has to do what they don't want do and I won't be forced into making them do it) but I will commit to memory when they have failed me and in what way. However, if they refuse often enough I will speak what is on my mind, I will ask them why they continually refuse to do as they have been asked to do. If their answer is a reasonable one, one that supports their refusal and shows good cause for their refusal, I will accede to their decision in that respect, with respect. If their answer does not give good cause, does not make sense and merely demonstrates their unwillingness, a "couldn't be bothered"/defiant attitude then it becomes a serious matter for discussion. If I asked them to do something it was because I wanted them to do it and because it needed to be done, their not doing it is likely to have meant that I had to do it - and it could well have been as much for their benefit as for mine. Repetitive refusal to do as asked indicates a problem with their submission, if they refuse in order to get a reaction they are disappointed as I don't reward disobediance or bratty behaviour. If they refuse because they have a genuine problem with what has been asked of them and it is impossible for them to do it (although the chances are I would not have asked if it were) then talking about their problem will lead to a greater understanding, on my part. If they refuse simply because they didn't feel like it then I would question how much they valued the relationship/me/us/their submission. Several relationships have ended, for me, simply because a submissive can't be arsed to maintain the submission he agreed to and fails to see the importance of maintaining it. It often seems that, once he feels he has my full attention and committment, he no longer needs to serve me in the way he used to during his efforts to build that committment from me. What appears to escape their mind is that the committment they gave me/the relationship at the start, is what allowed the relationship to develop in the first place, When someone loses the committment to serve me I lose the incentive to control to them - 'cos, in all honesty, if they are not willing to be please me/be controlled/do as they are asked there is not a damned thing I can do about it (other than call an end to either the D/s or the relationship) - I refuse to force them.
@The_Coven / @The_Problem_Page / I want the "Moon on a stick and the Stars suspended from bunting". / So many haystacks, so few needles! / Any man can be what a woman wants him to be, if he wants to be with her... relinquish the power to her and let her lead the way. Edited 23 Jan 12, 5:15 PM by chartreuse | |||||
| 23 Jan 12, 5:26 PM chartreuse UK(BA), 6 yrs |
^^This^^ resonates entirely with my thoughts, brilliantly expressed. @The_Coven / @The_Problem_Page / I want the "Moon on a stick and the Stars suspended from bunting". / So many haystacks, so few needles! / Any man can be what a woman wants him to be, if he wants to be with her... relinquish the power to her and let her lead the way. | |||||
| 23 Jan 12, 9:58 PM Dolly_Molly UK, 4 mths |
The point I'm trying to make is that surely everyone should have the freedom to say no if they really want to. I'm not talking about the people who say 'no no no' and mean 'yes yes yes'. In effect you're saying that rape, actual rape, is alright if the person has agreed to it 'once-upon'a'time'.
I think you're being incredibly unfair here. Are you saying that anyone who has ever found themselves in an abusive relationship is 'mentally incompetent' for trusting their partner? ANYONE can be manipulated despite their level of intelligence. Doesn't make them stupid, there are just a lot of very intelligent people who know what they're doing, can be extremely charming and seemingly trustworthy, but still have bad intentions. Not even that, but if a perfectly honest dom/master with good intent towards their sub/slave decides one day to introduce something new that the sub/slave doesn't like, why is it wrong for them to have the ability to say no?
I understand that many of these relationships do work, but I'm curious as to how it can be acceptable for someone to be forced into doing something just because, in the larger context of the relationship, consent was given. What if the dom/master wants to try something new that the sub/slave doesn't want? Surely it's impossible to fathom every single possibly scenario when giving consent?
Again, there's no need to be so harsh and I find this quite insulting to those who HAVE been in abusive relationships. I feel as though you think I have attacked your lifestyle and I apologise if anything I said was interpreted that way. I do not mean to attack anyone and am fully aware that this is a way of life I am unfamiliar with and that is judged by society rather harshly. I'm an extremely open minded person and really just want to understand. I am simply asking HYPOTHETICALLY if a perfectly mentally stable, intelligent person wanted to say no to something in a CNC relationship - GENUINELY wanted to stop and did not enjoy what was happening to them - would they be able to stop it? I just think that everyone SHOULD be given the option to say no if they want to. People change their minds and people make mistakes, doesn't make them stupid, it makes them human. Once again let me emphasise I'm not attacking anyone, I'm not talking about worse case scenarious just to be a difficult little brat, I just want to know!
No harm intended @Ms_Valentine, I promise Molly x Edited 23 Jan 12, 10:06 PM by Dolly_Molly |
