True Submission? (79)

in fairness, things did get a little heated last night. And yes I've seen his lovely pics.... I took them

I personally differentiate between a person who is submissive and a person who chooses to submit - the latter being more of a temporary thing, activity based, and indeed some switch later to being a person who is then choosing to dominate, as you do.

Therefore I can see this question as

1. "If a person chooses to submit is their act of submission genuine?" [my amendment, in bold]

Choosing to submit is an activity that can take place in a purely S/M activity. (Or purely D/s or a mixture of the two). Can they be genuinely submitting, given that they have an ultimate veto? As you say, you can submit to things that are against your will. You have a veto, but you are choosing not to use it. That *is* submitting - choosing to put another's will before your own. A choice freely made when you have another, equally valid option before you.

Oddly, that leads me to to a thought that feels rather upside down to me. If you are a submissive person by nature, is your submission therefore less (I'll avoid the word genuine here) - less 'pure'?

On the other side of the coin, there is this:

I understand that for Mistletoeslave the feeling of a lack of choice is an essential part of what she gets off on, but I would dispute that there is ultimately the same lack of choice that happens in real-world slavery.

Mistletoeslave has a choice as to who she will submit to: presumably she will exercise sensible options to refuse to belong to a man who would hamstring her or break her kneecaps or break her ankles for attempting to run away - let alone decide to put her to a painful death as an example to the other slaves. Extreme, yes, but still valid, (anyone else remember the case in America where two 'Gorean' Masters killed a lady who had opted to be their 'slave' on the basis that she had been displeasing and the books 'said they could'?)

Equally, I am guessing that she would exercise her options to choose not to belong to a man who had no interest in S/M at all, but wanted to be all lovey-dovey and gentle and nurturing all the time. Clearly the control is there, she is choosing within limited parameters to put herself in a situation with carefully pre-selected sadists where she 'feels' she has no choice.

There has been a choice made beforehand. A pre-choice. At that time the person is not [yet] submitting. They also before and afterward go off to work, feed the kids, whatever. This type of (generally S/M related) submitting is happening in a controlled, chosen and limited time-frame.

Please note, I am not intending to belittle anything hereby. Within the set parameters the experience can be challenging, extreme and very deeply felt.

Also, use the word 'slave' if you enjoy what the connotations mean to you. I do think it is appropriate to differentiate BDSM 'slavery' from real-world slavery though. The former is negotiated and opted-into, unlike real-world slavery, and again, unlike real-world slavery, it has either a preset end point or the option to opt-out again (even if it is never used the option *is* there and remains there).

The other question is:

2. If a person is submissive is their act of submission genuine?

Someone on here stated that they were not sure that 'submissive' people really exist. (Haven't been able to find the comment again, so can't contribute it, sorry). This is similar to the comment by @valleysnowdrop here

@Abraxus gave very good examples of how it often happens that submissives can be pushed out of rÔle. (I'm guessing this is less true of dominant personality types for obvious reasons! )

The misconception seems to be that people with 'submissive' personalities would be submissive all the time, to everyone. (The infamous 'doormat', which subs 'are not!' )

This is no more true than to say (or expect that) introverts never go out to parties or extroverts never stay home. They do, just as natural submissive personality types (and naturally dominant ones too) can push themselves out of their rÔle. For such people, what happens when they push themselves (or are pushed) out of their natural rÔle is that it is doable, but the experience saps your energy and drains your happiness level. Conversely being in the right relationship for your rÔle, boosts energy and happiness. It is life-enhancing.

But, maybe this means that 'natural' submissives are giving 'less'? After all, to a 'natural' submissive all options are not equal. Being submissive is therefore less a 'free choice' (between otherwise equal options), and more an attempt to maximise happiness (rather than sexual excitement, although that can be part of it) by aligning the outer world with their inner reality.

The last question: - (3.) are folks here really more S/M than D/S - I gave my take on earlier and as I feel I have had more than my say already I will try to shut up now and let others comment.

Thank you to OP for (a) really interesting and thought provoking question(s).

Before any questions are answered you need to define what a true dominant/submissive relationship is.

I also notice and have always noticed since I was a teenager that when I am treated in a certain way by a strong man I will feel submissive, the feeling will come out. Now of course if if a burglar ordering me to hand over a lap top I'd be more likely to knee him in the groin than kiss his feet and hand over the goods, but it has always felt very clear to me that I am submissive, that I don't choose to put that on in a role sense when I am with a man and that vanilla relationships do nothing for me at all.

DT

You're just too good to be twue, can't take my eyes off of you....

That is so well said, and totally resonates for me.

But the sex and pain are bloody good benefits on the side.

Breathe out, so I can breathe you in, hold you in....

It may well be an attempt to maximise happiness but I'm not sure that neccessarily means that they're giving any less. In fact from a dom perspective they're giving the same. How much the dom gains from it depends on whether he enjoys seeing someone struggle to please him, or prefers they do it happily, or couldn't give a shit either way as long as it gets done.

All other things being equal, the difference you're suggesting isn't what they give, but their perception of it, and whether they gain from it and enjoy it, or find it a challenge.

To be honest, if I say make me a cup of tea, give me a blow job, or whatever, I'm less concerned with whether someone does it because it's what they live for, or whether they go through all sorts of inner turmoil, just as long as I get my tea or blow job, preferably both, in reverse order

I don't see it as somehow giving less, just because it's something you want to give. Nor do I see someone as being more submissive, or giving more, just because they find it harder but do it anyway.

From my perspective, submitting to me is handing over control to me, and any difference in submission is related to how much control is conceded, not how that control is subsequently internalised by the submissive.

In my opinion, to see otherwise is almost to put D/s in the context of some sort of competition, where the goal is to try and see how much you can get someone else to do that they're not sure they want to do. Now of course that may have it's place at times and may well suit both parties some or all of the time, but it's not a mandatory requirement of either domination or submission.

I do think these sort of things put a lot unneccessary pressure and cause a lot of needless soul searching on the part of some submissives. In reality that doesn't have to be the case as all it takes is for the dom to be clear in setting out his/her expectations, and then the sub can decide if that's the kind of relationship they want to part of; either because they know it's what truly fulfills them and makes them blissfully happy, or because they want to be pushed and made to endure things that they find difficult. There's no one size fits all and instead it's a matter of choice.

Either way, if I get what I want then they've each given the same.

Personally, whilst some degree of pushing beyond boundaries may have it's place, it doesn't have to be done for the sake of it. For the most part I'd rather someone did as I said with a happy smile on their face, and a genuine feeling of contentment and fulfillment because they'd pleased me, as opposed to enduring it through gritted teeth just to show me how submissive they are.

Edited 17 Dec 11, 1:27 AM by Abraxus

Excellently put. I feel very much the same and won't repeat in my own words what you have very eloquently said.

Mistress of @paulss My PD blog at http://mistress-keene.blogspot.com/ http://twitter.com/#!/Mistress_Keene

Edited 17 Dec 11, 2:34 PM by Ms_Valentine