Informed_Debate's profile . Informed_Debate group posts
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| Lush_Life |
on Tue 13 Dec 11, 9:56 AM to the Informed_Debate group.
Does it surprise anyone that Cameron used the veto ?
I mean really surprise them ?
Assume for one moment that he used it for the reasons he explained. The 26 who have 'indicated' there possible agreement to a new treaty, have not really agreed to anything substantive at this stage. The cracks will begin to show as they return home and encounter national resistance.
Some will stick to the original idea, some will want to go further and others will move closer to the UK position and some will find their own way of backing out. That is the way these things work out.
Back to Cameron's game.
1) By sticking two fingers up at the French and the Germans he has made himself appear courageous and patriotic and this is very popular with a large chunk of the English electorate.
2) He has made Clegg look weak and cowardly and the deputy pm is now pretty much a dead man walking with the voters (and with him the vassal state that is the liberal democrats).
3) He can build the perception in the minds of the English voters that Labour are pro Europe and anti UK. Milliband does not help himself in this regard.
4) He is now loved by his most aggressive critics - the Tory backbenchers (a number are walking into work today whistling Nimrod and reciting favourite bits of Henry V)
So has the use of the veto really been a failure ?
I guess it depends on your understanding of why it was used.
It was used in the pursuit of power and the defeat of political opponents. It was nothing to do with sorting out the Euro, the EU or the EEC.
| 13 Dec 11, 10:12 AM Shypeachybottom UK, 20 mths |
Realistically did he have any other option? I don't think so. I am pro-European, but I think that a monetary, fiscal and budgetary union is a step too far at this point in time, under the current circumstances. I think it makes sense and is probably necessary for the Eurozone countries, and I also can see why newer Member States might be up for it. But as the only strong/worldclass currency in the EU other than the Euro, the UK and its £ couldn't join up. That doesn't mean that not joining doesn't have risks too, just that it would have been way too much for the UK electorate (more than 60% of whom are in favour of Cameron's veto based on several polls, and less than 20% of whom oppose Cameron's veto!). If the TV news programmes are to be believed, the government rather mismanaged the dialogue with the other EU Member States as the UK 'requirements' were not shared via the Foreign Office with other EU Member States ahead of time (as would be customary), including those friendly member states which might have been receptive to some points had they not been sprung on them at 2 in the morning when everyone was already exhausted after hours of negotiations, as apparently happened. Also not helpful to have French and, possibly to a lesser extent, German leaders who fundamentally felt that if the UK wouldn't sign up for the whole Eurozone package they shouldn't get any voice in it. I also agree with @Lush_Life that it is "easy" for leaders to agree in a closed room, but actually getting it ratified by all of the national parliaments might be trickier once they realise how much power and sovereignty is proposed to be transferred to the EU. In particular, if any of the Member States have to do a public referendum, that could be very interesting... The real question is what does the UK government do now to avoid isolation? I think the UK has to participate as actively as possible in the discussions to try and shape things going forward, and sign up to those bits that are appropriate for the UK to sign up for. Also... all UK governments have had a common policy of "blame it on Brussels" when it suits them, and never actually sharing with the British public the good things that have resulted from the EU... would be refreshing to see some of the news outlets actually be objective and give a balanced picture on that for once! (Yeah.. I can dream...) There's a somebody I'm longing to see, I hope that he turns out to be, someone to watch over me Edited 13 Dec 11, 10:13 AM by Shypeachybottom | ||
| 13 Dec 11, 2:03 PM Attitude_Adjuster UK(N), 6 yrs |
Totally. Of course what DC's motivations are, is a different kettle of fish. The other thing I'd add is "what treaty?". It doesn't exist, does it? Its a proposal to have a treaty that was rejected, not a specific treaty. If the eurozone was working well it should not require non-members cooperation to make it stable - this should be patently obvious to anyone, which makes me think the Franco-German lobby is using DC's exit to make political hay. In fact, right now any country not in the euro would be stark raving fucking bonkers to allow additional restrictions to be imposed on them to resolve the problem with someone else's currency. Talk about conflated objectives!
And all men kill the thing they love, By all let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword! | ||
| 13 Dec 11, 4:09 PM MasterYouMasterMe BD, 9 mths |
Random things. What treaty” is a good point. Please correct me if I am wrong. Of the referendums that have been held by countries within the EU over the last ten years on issues relating to the EU only two out of nine been passed by electorates first time? What is the chance that any agreement of either the 26 or 27 nations, treaty or otherwise, would be passed if governments were to ask the will of their people? Did anyone walk away from Brussels with what they wanted? Sarkozy has consistently pushed for Euro Bonds and a greater role for the ECB a demand that has been rejected by Merkel time and again forcing him to publicly climb down. Merkel wanted a EU wide treaty which she did not secure. The positions of both have been dictated by the realities of their domestic politics; are they so different from Cameron? Even the most Euro sceptic UK politicians accept that a stable Euro is in Britain's best interest. In which case if the UK being on the side-lines helps the EU take the rapid and decisive decisions, please no sniggering, which are necessary to save the Euro then fate has a wonderful sense of irony when it comes to British Euro sceptics. | ||
| 13 Dec 11, 9:33 PM emark UK, 9 yrs |
Oh sure, the likes of the Daily Mail will whine about Clegg for daring to not oppose the EU, but these people would never vote Lib Dem in a million years.
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| 13 Dec 11, 9:44 PM Morgan_Sinjen UK, 8 mths |
Or,
You could be totally wrong and DC put British interests first Edited 13 Dec 11, 9:45 PM by Morgan_Sinjen | ||
| 14 Dec 11, 4:17 AM Empress_Martine UK(HA), 2 yrs £      |
Which is what he has done.He made sure we are the dinner guest and not the dinner! The EU or EEC is a slowly falling apart.It like their house is on fire and they are arguing who should call the fire brigade(the IMF)etc.There is an old klingon saying."only a fool fights in a burning house"! http://empressm7.uboot.com/ http://www.socialkink.com/empressmartine Vampire, pro/lifestyle ts dom/switch.Ageplay mummy/aunty/AB,medical play,domestic,energy, outdoor specialist."Who you calling"@?!;:$£<Σ#"!" "Did you just call me a "@€$££!?"! Edited 14 Dec 11, 4:18 AM by Empress_Martine | ||
| 14 Dec 11, 2:20 PM CookieMonster UK, 6 yrs |
Ed said he would of used the veto as well I beleive. | ||
| 14 Dec 11, 2:47 PM Shypeachybottom UK, 20 mths |
Correct... it is all just political posturing... There's a somebody I'm longing to see, I hope that he turns out to be, someone to watch over me | ||
| 14 Dec 11, 6:27 PM Doghouse_Reilly UK(MK), 6 yrs |
Ironic really that the only party who wouldn't have used the veto are the coalition partners. It's like the Tories won't stop until they have forced Nick Clegg to publicly violate every one of the principles he stood for in the election. This is the best thing I've ever seen the Tories do to be quite honest, and I wholeheartedly support them in torturing Nick Clegg. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. | ||
| 14 Dec 11, 7:22 PM CookieMonster UK, 6 yrs |
Although when Clegg said he was wrong about the euro but you couldn't have predicted it that was just plain lying. All these rules Merkozy are putting in place should have been at the beginning of the ECU, not now its in its death throws. Thats almost common knowledge, has been for years.
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