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| Grownup_Frankie |
Black and white or shades of grey? That is the question, I suppose, and one that has been recently and thought-provokingly discussed on the boards, and blogs, relating to married people seeking extra-marital play or relationships.
And well, yes, there ARE shades of grey, to most things - but to some things there aren't. I mean, thats where the confusion lies, I think. The idea that 'there are many grey areas in life' somehow gets confused with the idea that 'nothing in life is black and white'.
I would say that nothing is set in stone in a relationship, and nothing is impossible. Nothing is impossible with LOVE fueling it - therefore, with LOVE behind actions there are MANY many possible 'grey areas' in life, in relationships, in a marriage or union of two people - love makes rules plastic, love can melt rules, love GIVES, and love grows in understanding, and love wont let itself be hampered or constrained by tradition, or simple 'black and white' thinking...
But love IS in black and white.
The principle of Informed Consent is another example of something being in black and white, without grey areas. Consent is consent - something given - something asked for - and above all else, something MUTUAL between two people; involving them BOTH. And 'Informed' consent is when you get to make a choice based upon ALL the information.
Keeping things from one's partner is never done for their own good. Its done so you can continue to get away with doing what you know they would not agree to.
But people make all sorts of mistakes in life, as well as all sorts of excuses for their actions, its how most of us learn to do better, to be better, and I don't think its necessary to judge other people, just ask oneself if you would want to be in their shoes - to live with the constant fear of discovery, which is the inevitable result of hiding something, and guilt, which is the inevitable result of lying to someone you love, and the doubt - possibly worst of all - that terrible thing you have allowed to take root in your relationship: if you can lie to your partner, DO you really love them?
All that struggle going on in a person's head, it takes its toll, it is a very destructive and negative energy that is unleashed by cheating on your partner, from then on you are forced to wear a mask at all times when you are with your partner, and to Know Yourself behind it, and to deal privately with all those poisons of remorse and regret and doubt floating round in your bloodstream with nowhere else to go.
You cut yourself off from a shared life.
Thats the very opposite of why people get married or form long term unions - its the opposite, negative, principle. So thats another black and white thing, without shades of grey.
Edited Wed 30 Nov 11, 4:20 PM by Grownup_Frankie
| 30 Nov 11, 5:02 PM dragons_sub UK(B), 4 yrs  |
I do so agree with this statement but also lying to them so as not to uspet them is another excuse to appease the conscience
I think eventually all things come out and then causes the inevitable grief. So in most cases just delays the hurt Honesty is paramount to a relationship, if that doesn't exist then is there really a relationship?
My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness.-- Dalai Lama | ||
| 30 Nov 11, 6:23 PM dryad_x UK(YO), 7 mths |
I completely agree, even if my efforts not to judge are sometimes inadequate... x | ||
| 30 Nov 11, 7:18 PM Grownup_Frankie UK, 4 yrs |
Yes, very possibly, but to my mind even if one's partner never finds out, the damage is already done to the relationship, every time you look at the partner you have lied to surely you are seeing someone you have fooled, decieved, tricked, someone you pity, for being so deluded about how trustworthy you are. And pity isn't love, and thinking someone is a fool isn't love - pretty soon you're left with no love left at all, just other, more negative, emotions left to fill the hole where it was. These are things WE do - we take away respect from our partners, in order to hurt them, or rather in order to ignore the fact that we are lying to them, we diminish them in our eyes in order to step cleanly over them to get at what we want - but we can't give them that respect back. We cannot ever forget how we have treated them, so we justify it, and see more and more bad in them, think less and less of them, and love - whats that but a word left hanging limply between you? Horrid fate! Miserable life. But its a choice. Nobody 'needs' to do it. Edited 30 Nov 11, 7:20 PM by Grownup_Frankie | ||
| 30 Nov 11, 7:43 PM Grownup_Frankie UK, 4 yrs |
Ummmm, I feel I'm coming across as condemning, when what I meant to express was something else. That Love can be revolutionary in its nature, it can upturn traditional conventions of marriage, love liberates us, like water its powerful enough to cut through rock, make its own path, it can flow round any obstacle - its a thing of nature, not art, not politics, not socialisation, not religion, not culture - these can bend like reeds in its path... But love must still obey the laws of its OWN nature, and those are black and white - simple - or 'pure', if you like, like an ideal can be pure, or a truth can be simple, up is up, down is down, love is kindness, care, respect, honesty, approval, admiration. Why would anyone want less than that? To give that up and gain what, in its place? Edited 30 Nov 11, 7:45 PM by Grownup_Frankie | ||
| 30 Nov 11, 8:53 PM Jezzebelle UK, 10 yrs |
My rules are black and white, "you love me, you don't lie and cheat, cheat and you're gone if I find out and believe me I will find out". Me, I wouldn't do it, if I commit, I commit. When I was much, much younger I cheated on someone and to this day I feel guilty even though I was never caught out. Edited to add: What others do is up to them but don't expect me to support it and be uncritical. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jezzebelle/ Edited 30 Nov 11, 8:54 PM by Jezzebelle | ||
| 30 Nov 11, 10:35 PM syndeetoo UK(WC), 6 yrs |
I'm married, and although I want to and probably could fuck my butcher I won't, because I'm not a cartoon or cliché. Although the butcher is incredibly attractive, I don't think my husband is interested in me giving him (the butcher) one, even though he has a blood-stained pinny. Anyone can fuck like dogs, cheat because they feel like it, or feel holier than thou because they don't. What matters is not whether you cheat or harm the other person, but if you fail to maintain your integrity. If what you do matters to them and doesn't matter to you then you need to ask yourself why you remain in that relationship. aunty synd the butcher fancying modest and delightful person who knows where the grass is greenest Pour encourager les autres Edited 30 Nov 11, 10:36 PM by syndeetoo | ||
| 30 Nov 11, 11:40 PM Grownup_Frankie UK, 4 yrs |
Thats it. Clever Sidney.
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| 1 Dec 11, 8:11 AM wonderer UK, 5 yrs |
Ah - fascinating. I try to see life from as many angles and perspectives as possible, and listen to as many contrasting voices as possible, then things become less clear cut. I do believe there are some kind of "absolute values" "out there" somewhere, but - partly from a slight study of cognitive psychology, and a slight exposure to some philosophical discourse - I do think it's usually wise to be modest about our comprehension of such realities. I think that might make me a post-positivist (on most issues at least) but I'm not really sure enough of my categories to be sure. Now - about love. I think I know where I stand there. I think all my relationships and encounters should be characterised by love, at one level or another. And by love I mean a profound concern and care for the well being and fulfilment of the other. If I'm a magistrate sentencing someone to a period of custody, or a sexual partner engaged in an act of sexual intimacy, or a customer paying for goods in a shop, or writing a computer programme which will be used by persons unknown ... in all cases I hope that at least some part of my motivation will be a love for others. love can transcend death too; we might care about the well-being of people after my own death; our children, partners, friends, acquaintances, maybe a pet, sometimes clubs or organisations. Some of us are lucky enough to have a primary beloved to whom we are ultimately committed. But this does not mean we are totally oriented to their welfare and no-one else's at all times. If we are counselling, for instance, we are probably focussed purely on that individual. Our love at any one time is often diffusely focussed, and over time varies. When at work we are differently oriented than when at home, or in the football crowd. And we have to love ourselves to some extent before we can love others. In a sense we're all poly, or at least open to some sharing, unless we deny our partner any outside contact at all. My own style of love wants the beloved to be free, to be allowed to make her own choices - even possibly mistakes, because it is a love which grows from respect. My role is to create an environment and base from which she can have as much choice and many opportunities as possible. A home in which she can express herself even if at time tastes differ; financial stability; encouraging a non-driver to learn to drive and providing a car can provide considerable autonomy. And when we're free, when we get out and move in different places and different social circles, then our love will be differently oriented and more diffuse than when we're together and alone and focussed solely on each other. Obviously there are other sorts of love; mine is largely non-possessive whereas some on here express there love through a dynamic of ownership and possession. Some express love primarily through sex acts; others through inflicting and receiving pain; some by acts of service; some primarily through or emotional support or companionship or cultural activities. Some people's love excludes the notion of privacy and wants the beloved to be like an open book, whereas for others love leaves room for privacy and doesn't always probe. Love is a multicoloured thing, at least in its external expression. I do agree though that there's probably some kind of existential notion behind it; that love is quite different to hatred with no spectrum between. But I also think that our visible expressions of love (and our styles of communication) are incredibly varied, with many shades, colours and hues, and don't fit into stereotypical patterns. ETA - just heard mention of Christina Rossetti on the radio which reminds me of one of her poems: "Love came down at Christmas". One of the more embarrassing and nonsensical and disrespectful claims made in the name of Christianity. Love of course existed long before 2000-odd years ago, and exists in cultures which have never heard of Christmas. I do like "In the bleak midwinter though" even though it is a bit fanciful.
"Wisdom begins in wonder” (Socrates) Edited 1 Dec 11, 8:36 AM by wonderer | ||
| 1 Dec 11, 11:43 AM Grownup_Frankie UK, 4 yrs |
Yes, there are all sorts of love, wonderer, and all sorts of natures, mine is a submissive nature, so, when looking for contentment, peace of mind, and end of mental struggle, for me it is important to recognise when I have what I want. Its daft I know, but I saw a cartoon when I was young and it has always stayed with me - a bear had caught an armful of fish - then tried to catch some more that were falling from the sky, for some reason, and he lets go of what he's already caught to grab more, and ends up with none. Somehow that image has filtered down into my philosophy of life. Discontentment comes from 'percieiving' that we haven't got something we want, and focusing on that. In the same way that expectation leads to disappointment, one can see that such - what would you call them? - attitudes, belief systems - in one's life leads to a sense of loss. Whereas the goal - or the thing one should want most - is feeling a genuine sense of gain - of good fortune, of gratitude to life for what it has brought you, not disaffection with life for what it has denied you. And all these operatic emotions do filter down I think into our everyday life, and colour our experiences. | ||
| 1 Dec 11, 12:39 PM wonderer UK, 5 yrs |
Kindred spirits in so many ways. I have contentment too, and a huge sense of gratitude for a rich, varied, full and fulfilling life. But there's always a danger that contentment can lead to passivism; getting stuck in a rut rather than being alive to new possibilties; floating downstream like a dead fish rather than exploring the whole riverscape inqusitively like a live one. I always look out for new opportunities and experiences, not to replace what I have, nor out of dissatisfaction, but to continue to grow. When one is already fulfilled in many ways then other opportunities are nice-to-haves, not essentials. "Wisdom begins in wonder” (Socrates) Edited 1 Dec 11, 12:42 PM by wonderer |
