14 Dec 11, 7:01 PM
MaxReebo
UK(B), 2 yrs
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Ms_tletoe_Valentine wrote:
MaxReebo wrote:
My question would be, where is the compromise?
What if those type of activities truly please your sub? Is that not important?
Where did this notion come from that for a male to enjoy femdom porn, and all that goes along with it, is wrong? Or that somehow he is not a 'real' sub?
Take away this type of pornography/imagery, and the pool of submissive males left over is very very small...
I personally find the vast majority of 'femdom' porn pretty cringeworthy, but something like the artwork of Sardax is an instant turn on.
That world is a fantasy world. One I would like to re-create (or have recreated for me) from time to time, but again we seem to be in a position of not being able to ask for or desire that for fear of being considered a 'wanky' male.
Max
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I do not think it necessary for there to be a compromise, not on things which are important to someone.
So, for me, I met a large number of sub men through my PD life and fell for one of them who met my needs and desires. Neither he nor I had to compromise. He was the kind of sub I knew I could spend my life with in an FLR and be happy.
I make no comment as to the 'realness' of subs who are into all the classic femdom stuff, clothes, leather, attitude and so on. What is real for them may not be my reality.I make no judgement as to how real or not they are.
It is in no way wrong for a sub to enjoy femdom porn and if he wants, can wank himself silly over it. I just think that the femdom porn has created the idea that just because that is the way it is portrayed in porn and there is so much of it, it is universally real and meaningful, for subs and dominants. Not so. For many dominant women, who live their lives either on the scene and uncomfortable with all that leather,rubber, corsets, strutting and degrading of men or who are not on the scene, it is just not how they view their dominance in style or content.
Bitchy Jones made this point very well a few years ago when she said that there were many many more dominant women out there, but in all likelihood the femdom porn images of what it is to be a dominant woman put them off being involved in the scene at all, ever and instead they worked to find non-scene sub men to dominate through other avenues.Ironic as sub men always complain that there are not enough dominant women, but maybe there are but the very things the men love are the things that keep those dominant ladies well away.
No one is saying having fantasies recreated isn't fun or valid. provided the Domme is willing and enjoys it and the porn stuff stays in the bedroom or bdsm sessions/scenes.
For some dominant women, we are looking for life partners, not just casual scenes and we need to know that our subs will treat us with respect and understand our needs in an FLR. We can afford to be choosy as we know meeting the right kind of sub to live in an FLR is completely different to having a bit of hot and horny bedroom bdsm. It is horses for courses. No one should compromise too much on a person they will live with and love forever.
So, find a dominant woman who likes dressing up, and doing all the femdom stuff and you will have fun and not be thought as just a 'wanky' male. However, a sub who tries to mould, manipulate or change me into a 'character', a prop for his fantasy when I don't feel the same way will always be dismissed as not my type.
From the dominant woman's point of view, it seems to say that our versions of what we like are not good enough, not real enough for some subs. That, how we innately feel when being dominant is worthless unless packaged in a PVC wrapper and thigh high boots. That subs just pay lip service to our wishes so they can get us to act how they want.
It is very hard to explain to someone who is into all the clasic femdom style that to me, wearing leather ( or rubber or PVC) is just horrible. I feel like a fool, pretending, a fake, it is like watching a caricature of myself parading in fancy dress, bereft of anything of the true me. Equally, I can't do the swearing, heavy degradation or bitchiness, it isn't me. It would be just play acting a role I was not cut out for. Men to me are very special and likeable, not worthless worms and if I call them that, even in jest or acting, it kills a bit of me. It destroys all the good stuff in domination for me, and yes, if all I could ever do was be a 'femdom' dominant, I would give up, give up PDing and give up on the scene.
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Just wanted to say what a really nice response this was!
Maxreebo
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14 Dec 11, 7:20 PM
Elysium
UK(EH), 5 yrs
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MaxReebo wrote:
Ms_tletoe_Valentine wrote:
MaxReebo wrote:
My question would be, where is the compromise?
What if those type of activities truly please your sub? Is that not important?
Where did this notion come from that for a male to enjoy femdom porn, and all that goes along with it, is wrong? Or that somehow he is not a 'real' sub?
Take away this type of pornography/imagery, and the pool of submissive males left over is very very small...
I personally find the vast majority of 'femdom' porn pretty cringeworthy, but something like the artwork of Sardax is an instant turn on.
That world is a fantasy world. One I would like to re-create (or have recreated for me) from time to time, but again we seem to be in a position of not being able to ask for or desire that for fear of being considered a 'wanky' male.
Max
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I do not think it necessary for there to be a compromise, not on things which are important to someone.
So, for me, I met a large number of sub men through my PD life and fell for one of them who met my needs and desires. Neither he nor I had to compromise. He was the kind of sub I knew I could spend my life with in an FLR and be happy.
I make no comment as to the 'realness' of subs who are into all the classic femdom stuff, clothes, leather, attitude and so on. What is real for them may not be my reality.I make no judgement as to how real or not they are.
It is in no way wrong for a sub to enjoy femdom porn and if he wants, can wank himself silly over it. I just think that the femdom porn has created the idea that just because that is the way it is portrayed in porn and there is so much of it, it is universally real and meaningful, for subs and dominants. Not so. For many dominant women, who live their lives either on the scene and uncomfortable with all that leather,rubber, corsets, strutting and degrading of men or who are not on the scene, it is just not how they view their dominance in style or content.
Bitchy Jones made this point very well a few years ago when she said that there were many many more dominant women out there, but in all likelihood the femdom porn images of what it is to be a dominant woman put them off being involved in the scene at all, ever and instead they worked to find non-scene sub men to dominate through other avenues.Ironic as sub men always complain that there are not enough dominant women, but maybe there are but the very things the men love are the things that keep those dominant ladies well away.
No one is saying having fantasies recreated isn't fun or valid. provided the Domme is willing and enjoys it and the porn stuff stays in the bedroom or bdsm sessions/scenes.
For some dominant women, we are looking for life partners, not just casual scenes and we need to know that our subs will treat us with respect and understand our needs in an FLR. We can afford to be choosy as we know meeting the right kind of sub to live in an FLR is completely different to having a bit of hot and horny bedroom bdsm. It is horses for courses. No one should compromise too much on a person they will live with and love forever.
So, find a dominant woman who likes dressing up, and doing all the femdom stuff and you will have fun and not be thought as just a 'wanky' male. However, a sub who tries to mould, manipulate or change me into a 'character', a prop for his fantasy when I don't feel the same way will always be dismissed as not my type.
From the dominant woman's point of view, it seems to say that our versions of what we like are not good enough, not real enough for some subs. That, how we innately feel when being dominant is worthless unless packaged in a PVC wrapper and thigh high boots. That subs just pay lip service to our wishes so they can get us to act how they want.
It is very hard to explain to someone who is into all the clasic femdom style that to me, wearing leather ( or rubber or PVC) is just horrible. I feel like a fool, pretending, a fake, it is like watching a caricature of myself parading in fancy dress, bereft of anything of the true me. Equally, I can't do the swearing, heavy degradation or bitchiness, it isn't me. It would be just play acting a role I was not cut out for. Men to me are very special and likeable, not worthless worms and if I call them that, even in jest or acting, it kills a bit of me. It destroys all the good stuff in domination for me, and yes, if all I could ever do was be a 'femdom' dominant, I would give up, give up PDing and give up on the scene.
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Just wanted to say what a really nice response this was!
Maxreebo
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Despite my seemingly antagonistic style.
I actually don't like the stereotypical femdom tropes.
To me it would scream of her doing it in some mistaken assumption that that's what was my sexuality. I would need reassurance that it was for her benefit.
Some Dommes do enjoy the feeling of dressing up in these ways. I wouldn't want to spoil their enjoyment.
However, it would probably still invoke the desired reactions. Not because of the aesthetics, but rather because of the wider context.
We do agree on a lot of things and I would like to make it clear that my rather brash approach isn't a reflection on anything other than the opinion that porn is in any way to blame. Let's televise and broadcast the raping of kings.
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14 Dec 11, 10:02 PM
Miss_OL
UK(YO), 6 yrs
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s1aveguy wrote:
Submissive men obviously do fantasise over stereotypical imagery of being physically overpowered or mentally humiliated by a strong woman. But this doesn't necessarily imply that they also seek a permanent FLR. For many men, the idea of Femdom is a fleeting sexual fantasy, to be turned on at will, and yes it is probably fuelled by Femdom porn. Many submissive men also have positions in regular life where leadership is a prerequisite and dominance is a part of their psyche, and so occasionally dip into Femdom to readdress their mental balance by playing part-time submissive.
All these factors are unfortunate for the Female dominant who seeks a FLR, where she makes important final decisions, her adoration and respect is commanded unconditionally, and without the burden of playing out clichéd Femdom scenes on demand. Sadly full-time romantic knights in shining armour are in short supply or may not even exist. Maybe those in search of a truly FLR should compromise and seek someone not in the scene, who is just generally courteous, undemanding, humble and docile, and the sought after FLR may ensue. Though I wouldn't hold your breath!
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Sadly, (speaking as a Dominant woman seeking a FLR), I feel this is one of the most accurate and honest posts I have read in a long time.
Although, I would suggest that the concept of introducing a non-scene but naturally submissive man to a FLR may not be as difficult as you may think, I've had something resembling my 'ideal' in the past, more than once, in apparently vanilla relationships. Unfortunately I didn't realise it at the time and then for the past 7 years I have been 'hooked' in to the idea that I will only meet a male sub for a FLR via a BDSM website. Two D/s relationships later and I'm beginning to see that as ever more unlikely. These sites are in my experience, and as you suggest, perhaps more something to 'dip into' as the mood takes. Yet, I see successful loving FLRs on here ... and so I frequently get pulled back in, and the cycle of hope starts again as it always seems to be an easier starting point.
Edited to add that I'm hardly looking for a knight in shining armour (I think it's easy to have a dig at Dommes and say we have unrealistic expectations), just a decent all round submissive guy who lives in the real world would be nice, but incredibly this seems to be very hard to find. I think partly this IS because of the stereotype 'Dominatrix image' which appears to affect the way that subs approach us, and as the initial approach usually dictates whether things go further, objectifying someone from the start is often the wrong way to go about it. Put me on a pedestal, but be there to catch me if I fall.
Edited 15 Dec 11, 6:54 AM by Miss_OL
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15 Dec 11, 9:01 AM
Ms_Valentine
UK, 9 yrs
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Miss_OL wrote:
s1aveguy wrote:
Submissive men obviously do fantasise over stereotypical imagery of being physically overpowered or mentally humiliated by a strong woman. But this doesn't necessarily imply that they also seek a permanent FLR. For many men, the idea of Femdom is a fleeting sexual fantasy, to be turned on at will, and yes it is probably fuelled by Femdom porn. Many submissive men also have positions in regular life where leadership is a prerequisite and dominance is a part of their psyche, and so occasionally dip into Femdom to readdress their mental balance by playing part-time submissive.
All these factors are unfortunate for the Female dominant who seeks a FLR, where she makes important final decisions, her adoration and respect is commanded unconditionally, and without the burden of playing out clichéd Femdom scenes on demand. Sadly full-time romantic knights in shining armour are in short supply or may not even exist. Maybe those in search of a truly FLR should compromise and seek someone not in the scene, who is just generally courteous, undemanding, humble and docile, and the sought after FLR may ensue. Though I wouldn't hold your breath!
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Sadly, (speaking as a Dominant woman seeking a FLR), I feel this is one of the most accurate and honest posts I have read in a long time.
Although, I would suggest that the concept of introducing a non-scene but naturally submissive man to a FLR may not be as difficult as you may think, I've had something resembling my 'ideal' in the past, more than once, in apparently vanilla relationships. Unfortunately I didn't realise it at the time and then for the past 7 years I have been 'hooked' in to the idea that I will only meet a male sub for a FLR via a BDSM website. Two D/s relationships later and I'm beginning to see that as ever more unlikely. These sites are in my experience, and as you suggest, perhaps more something to 'dip into' as the mood takes. Yet, I see successful loving FLRs on here ... and so I frequently get pulled back in, and the cycle of hope starts again as it always seems to be an easier starting point.
Edited to add that I'm hardly looking for a knight in shining armour (I think it's easy to have a dig at Dommes and say we have unrealistic expectations), just a decent all round submissive guy who lives in the real world would be nice, but incredibly this seems to be very hard to find. I think partly this IS because of the stereotype 'Dominatrix image' which appears to affect the way that subs approach us, and as the initial approach usually dictates whether things go further, objectifying someone from the start is often the wrong way to go about it.
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I have realised that if I were in the market for seeking an FLR D/s relationship, I would not look on bdsm sites but just seek a man via traditional methods or via more vanilla sites. It seems that finding men suitable for a 24/7 D/s relationship is not actually that easy on a site where physical bdsm activities and fetishes are more popular than D/s relationships. You would think it would be a natural place to look but the more I watch on, the more I think you can find play partners, casual fantasy fulfilment, play in clubs facillitated via IC but not so easily FLRs.
I am not sure. I would be fascinated to discover how many women had met their FLR partner on here
I believe whole heartedly ,and not only because I have one at home, that good candidates for an FLR do exist.
They do not have to be 'Knights in shining armour' at all. I do not want to be rescued, swept off my feet or to be revered as a Goddess. I sought, and have achieved, a great D/s relationship with paul, who is everything I ever wanted in a man and more. It is absolutely possible and achievable.
There are a few FLR websites which suggest that women CAN find the right kind of men for those relationships. These websites focus on non-bdsm stuff more than kinky things. I think it is more realistic than starting out with kinkiness as the core and then trying to bolt a relationship on to it. That maybe where some of the problems lie.
It took me quite a while to realise that I am more into D/s than s/m in my personal relationship and much of what I do like physically, fits into the D/s now rather than feeling like we have 'sessions' or 'scenes'. This has taken a huge while, about five years to work through before I saw it is okay to have it this way. Physical play still has its role and sexual pleasure is very important for us but the D/s element is the main driver and the biggest source of satisfaction for us both.
Mistress of @paulss
My PD blog at http://mistress-keene.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/#!/Mistress_Keene
Edited 15 Dec 11, 9:18 AM by Ms_Valentine
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15 Dec 11, 6:42 PM
chartreuse
UK(BA), 6 yrs
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Ms_tletoe_Valentine wrote:
I have realised that if I were in the market for seeking an FLR D/s relationship, I would not look on bdsm sites but just seek a man via traditional methods or via more vanilla sites. It seems that finding men suitable for a 24/7 D/s relationship is not actually that easy on a site where physical bdsm activities and fetishes are more popular than D/s relationships. You would think it would be a natural place to look but the more I watch on, the more I think you can find play partners, casual fantasy fulfilment, play in clubs facillitated via IC but not so easily FLRs.
I am not sure. I would be fascinated to discover how many women had met their FLR partner on here
I believe whole heartedly ,and not only because I have one at home, that good candidates for an FLR do exist.
They do not have to be 'Knights in shining armour' at all. I do not want to be rescued, swept off my feet or to be revered as a Goddess. I sought, and have achieved, a great D/s relationship with paul, who is everything I ever wanted in a man and more. It is absolutely possible and achievable.
There are a few FLR websites which suggest that women CAN find the right kind of men for those relationships. These websites focus on non-bdsm stuff more than kinky things. I think it is more realistic than starting out with kinkiness as the core and then trying to bolt a relationship on to it. That maybe where some of the problems lie.
It took me quite a while to realise that I am more into D/s than s/m in my personal relationship and much of what I do like physically, fits into the D/s now rather than feeling like we have 'sessions' or 'scenes'. This has taken a huge while, about five years to work through before I saw it is okay to have it this way. Physical play still has its role and sexual pleasure is very important for us but the D/s element is the main driver and the biggest source of satisfaction for us both.
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Sadly, the D/s element is often the missing one... it is easy to get a male body and do with it what suits both but... the D/s bit (the bit where the mind is controlled; the part that best reflects how important it is to the man to please his woman) is often absent/elusive. In my experience a man gives his body to a woman far more easily than he gives his mind/attention/devotion.
**Edited to add a reply to the below post**
@axmassub - Whilst your reply may well be the case with many men... those who are of a submissive mind-set easily recognise a good thing when they see it (they are not daft and are no door-mat but... once they feel comfortable with the physical submission their mental one is a natural path). The submissive male is not a selfish one, he is willing/able to identify how he will please his woman, he will observe her, listen to/hear her, he will make damned sure he remembers what she likes/wants/asks/says and will act accordingly. It's often the simplest of things that please her the most and it's the fact that he DOES remember those things about her that most clearly demonstrate how much he cherishes her.
A male who "forgets" what she tells him/says/asks, doesn't hear her, doesn't notice/observe the little things that matter to her and who does nothing to demonstrate how special she is to him is not behaving as a submissive, he is behaving like many other ordinary males... selfishly, single-mindedly and independently.
If he fears what he may lose he is unlikely to reap the rewards gained from what he purports to desire - no-one has said a male should give his mind to a female but... he should, at least, be prepared to when he meets one he doesn't want to lose.
axmassub wrote:
It could be a fear of handing over all that. The fear of being trapped, or even fear of being rejected some way down the line. Fear of changing their mind and letting you down some way down the line. A general individual fear of something else or a collective of such. A fear of becoming robotic, a fear of others perceptions, fear of ripping up lives lessons and starting all over again from scratch.
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@The_Coven / @The_Problem_Page, you might give the advice that someone needs. / I want the "Moon on a stick and the Stars suspended from bunting". / So many haystacks, so few needles! / Conserve conversation and converse about conservation!
Edited 16 Dec 11, 7:25 AM by chartreuse
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15 Dec 11, 9:20 PM
prettyPETunia
UK(WS), 4 yrs
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chartreuse wrote:
Ms_tletoe_Valentine wrote:
I have realised that if I were in the market for seeking an FLR D/s relationship, I would not look on bdsm sites but just seek a man via traditional methods or via more vanilla sites. It seems that finding men suitable for a 24/7 D/s relationship is not actually that easy on a site where physical bdsm activities and fetishes are more popular than D/s relationships. You would think it would be a natural place to look but the more I watch on, the more I think you can find play partners, casual fantasy fulfilment, play in clubs facillitated via IC but not so easily FLRs.
I am not sure. I would be fascinated to discover how many women had met their FLR partner on here
I believe whole heartedly ,and not only because I have one at home, that good candidates for an FLR do exist.
They do not have to be 'Knights in shining armour' at all. I do not want to be rescued, swept off my feet or to be revered as a Goddess. I sought, and have achieved, a great D/s relationship with paul, who is everything I ever wanted in a man and more. It is absolutely possible and achievable.
There are a few FLR websites which suggest that women CAN find the right kind of men for those relationships. These websites focus on non-bdsm stuff more than kinky things. I think it is more realistic than starting out with kinkiness as the core and then trying to bolt a relationship on to it. That maybe where some of the problems lie.
It took me quite a while to realise that I am more into D/s than s/m in my personal relationship and much of what I do like physically, fits into the D/s now rather than feeling like we have 'sessions' or 'scenes'. This has taken a huge while, about five years to work through before I saw it is okay to have it this way. Physical play still has its role and sexual pleasure is very important for us but the D/s element is the main driver and the biggest source of satisfaction for us both.
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Sadly, the D/s element is often the missing one... it is easy to get a male body and do with it what suits both but... the D/s bit (the bit where the mind is controlled; the part that best reflects how important it is to the man to please his woman) is often absent/elusive. In my experience a man gives his body to a woman far more easily than he gives his mind/attention/devotion.
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It could be a fear of handing over all that. The fear of being trapped, or even fear of being rejected some way down the line. Fear of changing their mind and letting you down some way down the line. A general individual fear of something else or a collective of such. A fear of becoming robotic, a fear of others perceptions, fear of ripping up lives lessons and starting all over again from scratch. If love is blind I need to find a cane
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