Informed_Debate's profile . Informed_Debate group posts
Posted by othyim on Wed 2 Nov 11, 5:15 AM to the Informed_Debate group.
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-rod-child-no...
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-10-harsh-disc...
I recently found these two articles. The outcome of these surveys seems to suggest, that at least in kids:
a) punishment fosters dishonesty
b) punishment has proven to be a predominantly negative force regarding individual development, especially "cognitive skills needed for self-control".
As I totally fail to understand any sort of real punishment dynamic in a D/s (not being play-punishment); and, as a child, never have been hit or severely punished, the contents of these articles sort of made me wonder.
For could it be, that the same (or a least a simular) escape strategy occurs, when in a D/s, real punishment dynamics are one of the corner stones of WIITWD? In other words, perhaps (the fear of) punishment could be a reason for lying? Or white lies? Or a present a hinderance for development, especially regarding self control?
I feel lying is a total opposite of what I want from a D/s. How can I expect a Dom to understand me, use me, take care of me, hurt me, if I would hold anything back? Also, I feel that (especially) in a D/s, both partners should be growing and developing. So... maybe, I'm not that weird in not "getting" punishment dynamics after all.
BTW, not wanting to flame anyone who feels happy in a punishment dynamic at all. YKIOK and all that.
I just felt the outcome of these surveys could give a nice angle to discuss at least some things we do. So, what do you think?
Edited Wed 2 Nov 11, 6:21 AM by othyim
| 2 Nov 11, 7:56 AM Pink_Freud UK(E), 20 mths  |
Except, of course, that the study focuses on rather harsh corporal punishments in schools: "... beating with a stick, slapping of the head, and pinching were administered publicly and routinely for offenses ranging from forgetting a pencil to being disruptive in class." It may be tempting to generalise this to other situations, but being hit in front of your peers for dubious reasons is not the same as having to sit on the naughty step for some transgression at home. Which is not to say that I agree with that either. Certainly it's better if behaviour is intrinsically motivated: "... punitive discipline may make children immediately compliant – but may reduce the likelihood that they will internalize rules and standards." | |
| 2 Nov 11, 7:58 AM othyim NL, 3 yrs |
Yes, that was what I was aiming at. "Class is the impartial, consistent display of emotional integrity." | |
| 2 Nov 11, 8:33 AM Belasarius UK(M), 8 yrs       |
As adults in a D/s relationship, punishment is rare. But vital. She does all she can to be the best for me. She does this honestly and with a will. Failure in her service is honest and, therefore, unpunishable. But conflict in relationships is inevitable. And, once honestly resolved, punishment provides a way of putting that conflict properly behind us. She is s. I am D. When punishment occurs both of us feel bad. But, it resolves conflict and confirms us to each other in the roles we play in our relationship. My goal - to save women from nature (Dior) Edited 2 Nov 11, 8:34 AM by Belasarius | |
| 2 Nov 11, 3:29 PM Abraxus UK(WC), 12 yrs |
I would probably question the studies cited for a number of reasons as follows: 1. As previously noted, the punishments may have been a little harsh. 2. The study was conducted on very young children (kindegarten and first grade), so it's not really possible to compare to an adult relationship. 3. The study was only conducted in two schools, so not very scientific or conclusive as there may well have been other factors. 4. The study was conducted in West Africa, so all sorts of cultural differences may make the study less relevant to people in different cultures. 5. The study only noted the effects on the behaviour on very young children and as such offers no insight on how either environment may effect those children in later life as adolescents or adults. 6. By nature the study is group based and so can only ever provide an average, best compromise, so is not relevant to one to one relationships where a bespoke solution can be tailored to an individuals needs and nature. As a result I doubt it bears much relevance to corporal punishment in Western schools where it may not be so harsh, and is generally not administered until much older. Additionally it's probably even less relevant to adult relationships, where reasoning and motivation are fully developed and function differently. That said, I do generally agree that a carrot rather than stick approach is better, similarly that fear of punishment may lead to a lack of openness and even lying. But to some degree that's up to the dom to manage. As a child I was physically punished both at school, and to a lesser degree at home, but in both cases it was perfectly clear that the punishment would be far more severe if I had lied. However, without punishment, some people will simply exploit and manipulate a relationship if that's their nature. As a consequence, I don't really think there's a one size fits all solution to adult relationships, as our adult natures are somewhat already developed. Therefore punishment may work incredibly well for one individual and yet be enirely counterproductive for another. No doubt some will say that with perserverance you can modify anyone's behaviour over time to suit a particlar regime, but personally I think it's far less hassle to take what you have, try to understand that person as much as possible, and use whatever methods are most likely to be effective on that individual, rather than try to force them into compliance with your own predetermined choice. School studies are no doubt informative for how to teach children, but by their nature are a bit of a fudge or compromise, as a method has to be agreed upon and employed across a varied group of individuals. A D/s relationship on the other hand has the enormous luxury of being a one to one situatuon, where statistical averages and balances of probablities don't need to be settled for. Instead one can focus on the individual at hand and produce a tailor made envirnoment rather than have to rely on an off the shelf solution, designed to suit merely the average or estimated majority. No matter what, some people will insist on punishment and others on motivation and encouragement, which to me is the wrong way round, as it makes the means, rather the end, more important. Personally, I'm more interested in the end result and what I hope to achieve, and so am not wedded to one way or another, and instead prefer to try and establish what would achieve that result most effectively with any given individual. Edited 2 Nov 11, 3:30 PM by Abraxus |
