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Does God need to be worshipped and obeyed pt2 (14)

Informed_Debate's profile . Informed_Debate group posts

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30 Oct 11, 7:27 PM
CookieMonster
UK, 6 yrs

If the magic sky monkey shows up and smites Doghouse Riley then he may have a case for authority. Somehow I doubt that is going to happen so we can do as we please without the heavenly boogieman interfearing.

31 Oct 11, 9:14 PM
Arry_le_Switch
UK(WF), 11 yrs

Thanks for your comments and contributions folks.

Switchy_arry wrote:

If the Canaanite child victims go straight to heaven, then abortionists do an aborted foetus no wrong if it ends up in the same place.

AnEnglishMaster wrote:

However, one glaring illogicality I must point out, as in the quotation above.

IF that were true, then somebody murdering me would also be doing no wrong. For I believe that, thanks to Christ's giving Himself for me, and God's forgiveness which I do not deserve, I too would go straight to Heaven.

Wrong does not merely consist in the consequences. Similarly, if someone tries to shoot someone else, but misses, it cannot be true that the attempt failing means no wrong was committed. It is why there is a crime of attempted murder.

Wrong is founded in the attitudes and actions of the perpetrator, not just in the consequences, or lack of them.

Hatred is wrong - even if the surface veneer is of someone who pretends to like you. Jealousy is wrong, even if you don't convey the idea to the envied other that this is how you feel.

All of these are reasons why Jesus said that man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. So, He sees what we are really like inside - and for that reason rejects the apparently "good" deed done for bad motives, and understands those who try but fail.

The parable of the Tax-Collector and the Pharisee, both praying in the temple, is instructive. The "sinful" tax-collector could only plead for mercy, whilst the Pharisee was full of his own righteousness. Jesus said the one praying for mercy went home more "justified" than the other.

So, it is not just the results of what we do that are a measure of the rightness or otherwise of an action. The assertion above does not follow.

English

Let me try to tone down some of the glare. There are high rates of abortion in China, and even if that country were to end up governed largely by Christians, such a government might find itself compelled by circumstance to continue to enforce the one child per family policy, given the pressures of population growth and the lasting damage done to Chinese agriculture in the Mao years. Necessity hath no law.

I agree that "wrong does not merely consist in the consequences", but one of the effects of types of religious belief which include a judgement, an eternal heaven and a non-empty eternal hell is that it can reduce life to a zero-sum game in which calculated self interest can trump purely moral concerns - an example of this is Pascal's Wager, which argues for belief purely on the grounds of probability and self-interest, regardless of the state of anyone's heart. Considered in this light, an aborted child going straight to heaven is the eschatological equivalent of winning the jackpot.

Edited 31 Oct 11, 9:16 PM by Arry_le_Switch

31 Oct 11, 9:32 PM
Arry_le_Switch
UK(WF), 11 yrs

wonderer wrote:
The ignorant can read pretty well what they want into a suitably difficult body of ancient texts. Cromwell may be an example of this.

Having read through some of his letters and speeches, I don't think that "ignorance" can apply in Cromwell's case. He knew the Bible back to front and was capable of turning a fine phrase, as in his reply to the Scots Presbytarians: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken". Good advice, though he seldom regarded it as applying to himself.

The worrying thing about religious ideologues who take a literal approach to their texts is not their ignorance, but how logical they can be given their premises. The Marxist heretic and refugee from Stalinism Victor Serge once said that "Revolution is the affair of logical lunatics" - in some cases, so is Revelation.

Edited 1 Nov 11, 12:10 AM by Arry_le_Switch

31 Oct 11, 10:59 PM
Abraxus
UK(WC), 12 yrs

Switchy_arry wrote:
Let me try to tone down some of the glare. There are high rates of abortion in China, and even if that country were to end up governed largely by Christians, such a government might find itself compelled by circumstance to continue to enforce the one child per family policy, given the pressures of population growth and the lasting damage done to Chinese agriculture in the Mao years. Necessity hath no law.

Christianity doesn't allow circumstance nor suffering to get in the way of dogma, as can be seen by it's stance on condoms in aids ridden countries. It's all about the numbers, even if overpopulation results. Market share is king.

Switchy_arry wrote:
I agree that "wrong does not merely consist in the consequences", but one of the effects of types of religious belief which include a judgement, an eternal heaven and a non-empty eternal hell is that it can reduce life to a zero-sum game in which calculated self interest can trump purely moral concerns - an example of this is Pascal's Wager, which argues for belief purely on the grounds of probability and self-interest, regardless of the state of anyone's heart. Considered in this light, an aborted child going straight to heaven is the eschatological equivalent of winning the jackpot.

Perhaps, but the price of the winning ticket is someone else suffering for eternity for carrying out the abortion.