what is more important, to love or to be loved? (96)

Totally agree with this and your first post too.

But isn't that "unexpected" reciprocation the point where realistic expectation begins, when you actually have the most to lose. And isn't that the point from which one can REALLY get hurt.

The pain of unrequited love that was only ever an unrealistic expectation to begin with can fade pretty quickly after a short time of separation to see things in perspective. I think most of us learn that after our first adolescent "crush" or two. But that "magical" reciprocal love can soon become unrequited love if that love is transferred elsewhere, destroyed or run away from, or simply no longer appreciated for its "magic" by the other person.

Sure, you can love without expectation, presumption or the emotional dependency and vulnerability that results therefrom. And its wise to protect ourselves that way by limiting expectations and keeping a grip. But what after the "unexpected magic" has happenned then later faltered, even much later.

I'm not sure there's even a "grownup" answer to that one.

I AM THE GOD OF HELL-FIRE!.....but its my lunch break right now

I need to feel loved but I love loving someone

You wanted all of me, I freely gave it. Look after me, cherish me, love me.

^^ For me someone will only be my Dom or Master if they are also my partner. So by definition, there need to be mutual feelings between us. I could not submit to him if I didn't believe he loved me and cherished me and wanted our relationship to be ongoing.

When you are getting to know someone, at some point one of you may start to love the other, but you don't "expect" the other person to love back, but if, when, you find that they do, then it is wonderful and is the basis for a relationship.

I have been in relationships where I have loved more or where my then-partner has loved me more, and long-term neither works well in my experience, I think you do actually need to have comparable feelings for each other for it to be a successful D/s relationship (for me, D/s is about relationships, not about play).

^^ Yes, very true. Also, it is not a linear logical process that can be controlled through willpower, where if you do steps 1-5 then step 6 is falling in love - you cannot will yourself to love someone, or command someone to love you.

Love is one of those things that sneaks up on you. One moment you like someone, a lot, you enjoy their company, they make you smile, you care for them, and one day suddenly you realise that your feelings are a lot stronger than that. You can imagine yourself growing old with them, and if feels right (no matter what age you imagine yourselves being!). The idea of not having them in your life makes you sad beyond belief.

In that sense, love is not reciprocal, in that when I fall in love, it is not conditional on or dependant on the other person falling in love with me at the same time and to the same extent. But if we both want a relationship, then our feelings for each other do need to be comparable I think.

I think @Reversed's signature is a great description of love: "Love is when you kiss all the time. Then when you get tired of kissing, you still want to be together and you talk more."

There's a somebody I'm longing to see, I hope that he turns out to be, someone to watch over me
I'm a little lamb who's lost in the wood, I know I could always be good, to one who'll watch over me (Ella Fitzgerald)

I agree entirely with @Grownup_Frankie that there can be no expectation - it is not the loved one's fault that you find them so wonderful.

And I have seen that kind of unrequited love turn to resentment and bitterness, when that kind of expectation rears its head: "why don't you love me, when I do so much for you and sacrifice myself for you?" The answer may simply be, "I never asked you to."

I think about that a lot. My Master accepts and copes with my love, my absolute devotion, and actually I am grateful for that, as I think it would grate on, or frighten, a lot of people in its sheer intensity. He understands me, and is pretty kind about it.

But I never feel that he owes me anything, least of all his love, and that is so terribly important. If I ever thought for one second, "I do all this for you, I work myself into the ground for you, why can't you love me?" I'd know that it wasn't love any more, it was resentment, and have to make myself stop. I could too, I'm sure of it. Because the amazing gift to myself of feeling this love would be spoiled.

The one thing I do feel I'm owed is some acknowledgement of my slavery, and the assertion of his control, since he told me that he wanted me to be his slave, love him and dedicate myself to him. But that's all.

It still makes me very unhappy that he does not love me, as I'm in what psychologists call a full-blown limerent state, where my most passionate desire is that my beloved should love me, but I cannot expect it as a return for my efforts, or resent him for not doing. How could he make himself do so, any more than I could make myself not be in love with him? Impossible.

It is my issue if I choose to be his slave, because not being that seems an even worse and more tragic option. It has to be him, you see. (And I know people don't see, but it does.)

It's double rubbish because I so need to be loved. But I guess the above is saying I need to love even more, in answer to the OP. Because I wouldn't turn the clock back, even now.

Most excellent post, and very true.

The assumption always seems to be that love is a good and desirable thing (we are, I guess, talking about erotic love, here).

However, it is a perilous thing. As I have said before, I have a suspicion that if love was a new thing that someone had just invented, most people would think it sucked.

If you love without return, you become angry, resentful, twisted: if you are loved without being able to return, you can feel hunted.

Plato's highest ideal of love was where one wishes for the well-being of the beloved with no expectation or desire of return; how many of us can aspire to such self-denial?

When I want your opinion, I'll thrash it out of you.
Can you taste the grit between your teeth....

I wouldn't stop myself falling in love more generally just because there's a risk I'd be hurt. I'd rather take that risk and as I'm an optimist I would except it would all turn out good.

Well, no...no....

....hope? Faith?

Belief, I suppose.

If you believe the magic is lasting, then it is lasting. If you stop believing, then...ummmm. We ARE an adaptable species, but it IS a funny thing, when love stops being love - a lot has been written about falling IN love, but less about waking up one day and finding oneself no longer in love. That too...is a mystery I suppose, for each of us to discover. It should be written about more, perhaps. In many ways it must be puzzling - the end of 'enchantment'.

Um. 'Faith', I suppose, is not a logical belief. Having faith in your feelings of love for someone cannot be put to 'logical' test.

Some things are mysteries, and remain so. Still, not every mystery has to be explained, perhaps.

Falling out of love...no, nobody really talks about it much, do they? Because it hurts, or its strange and disquieting that it DOESN'T hurt...its very enigmatic.

so therefore The lady is not sharing that special thing and not getting something all relationships should have shared and mutual love

And that is the most important thing both are in LOVE

One day I hope to put a twinkle in a ladies eye ,without hope what is there

What a soppy sod I'am

Its self interest though.

Loving someone for what they DO for you can only lead to disappointment - when they stop doing it, or do it wrong.

Its a choice, or a path - you take it and it leads you to disappointment, sadness, resentment. As does the path of obligation. So its not in your best interests to go down those paths. Thats all I mean to say. Its not self denial. Its self interest. Its self-love. Its wise love. You can LOVE, and you can decide how best to love - what's nonsense is that we are slaves to love, when in truth love liberates us.

Love Is Not Ownership.

Once that is understood, life becomes much easier, becasue in life there are many instances where we have to let go, and it is better to let go with love than to try to hold onto something, particularly something we love. Holding onto something is MEANESS. Its GREED. Its coming from a neagtive place. So its results can only ever be negative results.

We don't need to do it to ourselves. We can act wisely in love. We can say 'I love this person', and we can then ask ourselves 'How best shall I love this person? What is hte best form of love to give to this person? What is the most liberating? What is the least imprisoning?

Isn't it true to say that what we love most about someone is actually their uniqueness - that they are themselves, and no other person. And isn't that really loving their FREEDOM; the freedom to be themselves?

Love Is Not Ownership.

If someone loved me and I didn't love them back, I would feel that there were some crossed wires and mixed understandings going on.

If I loved someone and they didn't love me back, I would be very concerned that I was chasing after someone who didn't feel as strongly for me as I do for them and it would feel like "why am I making them a priority when they are only making me an option".

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice xx