Man is born evil (39)

Good and evil are abstract human moral-social constructs so you can't be "born evil" What modern anthropology and archeaology suggests that humans evolved in peaceful, tightly knit, highly cooperative groups with extensive free resource sharing.

Politicians, dictators, global conglomerates and billionaires all emerge in post-neolithic, post-agricultural groups where humans have to cope with extensive space and resources pressures and a social structuer that allows resources to be concentrated in the hands of the few. Selfish behaviours may well be a coping reaction to a form of social and resource pressure we did not evolve in to.

Subs in a bdsm context, like everyone, are mostly trying to get their emotional needs met in the context of a mutually satisfactory relationship. Healthy relationships are reciprocal arrangements.

Alturism can be selfish and visa versa.

Well we are constantly evolving and out environment is also constantly evolving so there is never a perfect equilibrium between our evolved state and our current environmental pressures...

I think I would agree that generally we do function well in small social groups, though not without a competative (selfish edge), though as with most group animals the competition within the group is generally non-injurous (no more than transient and trifling ) and once a pecking order emerges, its generally back to cooperation.

How big are those groups though? I think we evolved to cope with a natural size, exceeding it forces a rethink and a reorganisation, sometimes with significant pain. We don't exercise the same restraint dealing with other groups as we do our own, otherwise war would not be possible. Also history tells us that those Hitlers, and Khans aren't one-offs. Nature chucks them out periodically, and doubtless for every one that you can think of there are thousands of 'sleepers', for whom their trigger conditions are never met, and perhaps we all carry the disposition to that behaviour burried in our genetic waiting for the expression criteria....

Someone posted a rather pertinant link on here to a video article exploring the changing definition of 'group', and the social evolution and pressure to redefine it (sort of tribe -> theology -> nation state -> ??? type stuff) It was quite intersting - the argument being made was that we are at a point that our 'national' tribes no longer meet the need and we are on the point of A Very Serious Reangement Event.

... and no I don't believe in altruistic submission.

And all men kill the thing they love, By all let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!

Evil isn't power hungry and ruthless. It just means really bad, and that can change it's meaning according to the circumstances. Power hungry and ruthless can be good traits in certain circumstances.

'Evil' isn't a natural state (as has been posted earlier), it's a man made idea (usually with religious conotations) therefore can't be something you are born as.

What? You mean people are doing stuff to feel good?

I wouldn't call it selfish, but it certainly isn't selfless. People don't do things just for others, they get some kick out of it themselves as well.

"Bottom line: it's couples who are truly right for each other wade through the same crap as everybody else, but the big difference is they don't let it take them down. One of those two people will stand up and fight for that relationship every time."

Edited 17 Jul 11, 4:59 PM by yoda_dog

Humans have empathy. The pain of others causes us physical pain. Hardly a trait we'd have nurtured if we were born to screw each other over.

The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

International man of mystery
Men are from Mars, women are from Hell

Well to be fair, nearly all will be empathic. Empathy is such a widespread trait in mammals that even animals have it, and indeed we have it for other animals. It's not some hocus pocus voodoo thing like a soul, it's measurable. It's been scientifically observed, measured occurring in the brain. To have no empathy, at all, that's really rare. It would represent a really severe physiological dysfunction.

To return to the OP, I don't think many humans at all are power hungry and ruthless. I think the vast, overwhelming majority are content with what they consider a reasonable standard of living. It's why not everybody tries to be an investment banker. It's why people do stuff for fun, rather than the accumulation of money and shiny things.

The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

Humans are territorial, meat-eating apes whose social structure is that of the pack animal – hierarchical with the pecking order decided by strength, cunning and viciousness. This is tempered by altruism, which has been shown to have a selfish foundation. One sees the same structure in chimpanzee groups. Humans also apply the ability to alter the environment to suit their needs (durable shelters, complex tools, clothes etc). I am not sure that any of that is evil.

Unusually, the human also has considerable and sophisticated empathy, allowing them to forecast the actions of prey and competitors. Considerable and sophisticated communication ability to co-ordinate the pack and negotiate alliances too. Out of empathy, altruism, negotiated and coordinated relationships come 'Ethics' and an appreciation of the abstract. I would say that it is the capacity to decide to be 'Good' that is unusual and that sets the human apart.

Evil is the absence of Good – knowledge of what benefits the species, pack or family and then a deliberate decision to do the other thing for personal (often short-term) advantage. A creature without empathy, altruism, negotiated and coordinated relationships cannot be evil as it does not understand the implications. If a human is born without the capacity for these (a psychopath) or is deliberately indoctrinated with a distortion of these (the Roman Empire, the WWII Axis Powers, South American mass sacrificial societies), then also, they are not in themselves evil but need to be identified and securely contained, or preferably re-educated, for the benefit of the home or world 'pack'.

Just my view from my British-European, Judaeo-christian, capitalist-liberal point on the planet.

ETA: "submissives and slaves in the BDSM context" do this for their own pleasure and rarely attempt to disrupt society to achieve this. If they get too bratty or disruptive, then they are 'contained' or ejected from the club!

"He took a single sip of her pain and found it exquisite"

Edited 18 Jul 11, 12:01 PM by Mad_Monk

Everything we do...every action we take, every penny we spend, on some level is to make us feel good (or at the very least, to avoid feeling bad).

Some feel good by attaining power, some don't. Personally, I'd be a complete wreck if I was somehow thrust into a position of power...I don't like making decisions about where a group is going to dinner in case someone doesn't like the food!

For every minute you are angry you lose sixty seconds of happiness. (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new (A. Einstein)
To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it. ~Confucius

However, if anyone knows a society that condons murder and theft and does not consider it a breach of common code of behaviour, please illuminate my ignorance.

There seems to be a pan-society concept of some very basic rights and wrongs. Many societies have laws that allow the wrongs to become 'right' such as, I believe, castration, legal death sentence and, I am sure many others. The reason the laws are in place is because, generally speaking, the act would normally be considered 'wrong' and against the society's code of behaviour.

One law I have never come accross is "In this circumstance xxx, it is right to lie and prevaricate to someone else's detriment and your selfish gain." Anyone out there that can identify such a law?