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| Doghouse_Reilly |
on Sun 20 Feb 11, 6:39 PM to the Politics group.
Kind of poignant following a post about Bloody Sunday that we should see on the news an example of how a properly evil regime deals with dissent. There are reports coming out of Libya that everything, from machine guns and tear gas to mortars and gunships have been unleashed against the civilian protesters. Hundreds dead, presumably thousands more injured. Of course it's not just Libya, the whole Middle East is still in turmoil, but Libya is looking like the main event for now.
It looks like the government panicked after Egypt's government fell and started shooting. I've seen and read some reports that protesters have armed themselves in many areas and are fighting back.
It's already a pretty horrible state of affairs, indeed it was even before the violence started, and it's only going to get worse from here.
Starting to wonder what cards nations like the USA are going to play with all these things happening. I mean if democracies keep breaking out all over the Middle East, what becomes of Israel's protected status as 'The region's only democracy'. Will the US get involved? Can they?
I find it slightly comical that for decades the US line has been about promoting democracy around the world, yet when it starts to happen they shit themselves.
| 20 Feb 11, 7:19 PM Attitude_Adjuster UK(N), 6 yrs |
The us knack of shawing up dictatorships when it suits its need, undermines any credibility in promoting democracy. The us would be advised to stay well away, to avoid providing more ammunition to the Islamic fundamentalism, having said that if the ripple effect continues I can't see how some intervention isn't inevitable ... the French are due a turn... eta. Obamas use of the UN veto is not going to help in this, that was strategically inept And all men kill the thing they love, By all let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword! Edited 20 Feb 11, 7:22 PM by Attitude_Adjuster | ||
| 20 Feb 11, 7:26 PM othyim NL, 3 yrs |
Um... call me leftish, or libertarian, whatever, but any state that basically only has a two party system can, IMnshO, not be considered democratic. For it doesnt leave you with a real choice. That would, BTW, include both the UK and the US. Ghadaffi indeed is one of the worst and most vile dictators in the region. But anyone that follows the reports of Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International would have known this for decades. Still, I find the images that come out of Libia through Youtube and the likes now simply hideous. But also, some news is, in a weird way, hopeful. Like the reports (at Al Jazeera, not Libian state controlled) that hospitals are flooded with volunteers who give blood. http://english.aljazeera.net/ For that shows the same kind of loyalty to your own people, or if you like the sense of what is right and what is wrong, that common citizens in both the UK and Europe had during WWII. It shows a positive general human quality, that is not influenced by religion or politics.
You just need to look at the protests in Bahrain to see this? But than again, that is only the US POV on "democracy"? Bahrain is interesting, for the wrong reasons. The home of the US Fifth Fleet, the Saudis (apparently) threatening intervention, the Bahrain population reportedly protesting together despite the Sunni/Shia split. As always, "Divide et impera" comes to mind. Power is about what you can control. Freedom is about what you can unleash. (Harriet Rubin) Edited 20 Feb 11, 8:16 PM by othyim | ||
| 20 Feb 11, 9:19 PM Plein_Soleil UK(NP), 2 yrs |
I don't think that's Leftish . It's just common sense . A propos of nothing , I'm told that when Mubarrak was toppled there was a headline in the New York Times , " Army Takes Over " . About 60 years too late . " Yeah . Well I love my cigar but I take it out once in a while " Groucho Marx | ||
| 20 Feb 11, 10:41 PM Doghouse_Reilly UK(MK), 6 yrs |
And it looks like Momo is going down, as in within days, if not hours. The military is defecting in numbers, the revolt is spreading. He'll either give it up, or it'll be civil war or something. Looks like Gaddafi is done though. His attempt to kill his way out of the rebellion has failed. Who next? The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. | ||
| 20 Feb 11, 10:53 PM Doghouse_Reilly UK(MK), 6 yrs |
Regarding what I said in the Bloody Sunday thread about armies not shooting their own people, apparently in Libya there's a lot of tribes, and that's been why certain factions have been willing to fire on protesters and such like. Last I heard the tribes in the south have kicked off, about a quarter of the entire population, and others are going too. So the reign of Gaddafi is definitely over, only question is if it's a revolution or a civil war. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. | ||
| 20 Feb 11, 11:23 PM Plein_Soleil UK(NP), 2 yrs |
" Yeah . Well I love my cigar but I take it out once in a while " Groucho Marx | ||
| 20 Feb 11, 11:26 PM Cassius UK, 3 yrs |
It makes me hope that Islam can come out of its Middle Ages and have its Renaissance and Reformation. It is going through its Wars of Religion - uncanny how the sequence to some extent parallels the European experience : for Catholic & Protestant read Sunni and Shi'ite and so on.Of course there remain pockets of fundamentalism - for Taliban read Inquisition. Of course the similarities and not precise, but there are fascinating similarities. Now the interesting idea is, having considered the precursors - can we make an educated guess at what might happen now ? Committees of Public Safety emerging - dominated by one person (Robespierre,Lenin,Gandhi,Cromwell)....will the monarchies/dictatorships be rooted out or survive into constitutionality ? Will the military forces take on a similar role to the New Model Army in the late 1640s? Will new Ayatollahs aka Cromwells arise? I shall be observing with keen interest - and not forgetting that the 17th Century Wars of Religion were alive and well in Ireland, and are bubbling away underground even now.And as to Interventionism - it very rarely works.Let the UN take heed of the Prime Directive of its successor in 300 years time, the United Federation of Planets. Practise senseless acts of beauty. Edited 20 Feb 11, 11:32 PM by Cassius | ||
| 20 Feb 11, 11:30 PM Attitude_Adjuster UK(N), 6 yrs |
Iran's been teetering for a while.... my money's there. What will it take for Saudi?
And all men kill the thing they love, By all let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword! | ||
| 21 Feb 11, 2:55 AM DancesWithPussycats UK(TW), 7 yrs |
Interesting if they both go, then. For the last 30 years Iranian backed Islamists have been trying to destabilise Algeria. International man of mystery | ||
| 21 Feb 11, 8:18 AM Ian_2007 UK(N), 4 yrs |
You'll have a long wait for that Tunis was about unemployment and food price inflation. Egypt started out the same tack but the rights industry soon took over and politicised the whole thing (you could observe the moment at which the vox pop interviews from people calling in went from middle-class arabs with real grievances to people with humanities degrees and English accents talking about freedom). In Jordan, the protests went away all of their own accord. In Yemen, a regular event got caught up in the rolling news culture and was rebranded as "dissent". In Bahrain, it's just Sunni-Shia tensions. In Libya, it's just tribal tensions. These things have been heavily, and in cases clumsily, news-managed by people who sense an opportunity for fifteen minutes of fame. It seems unlikely that the Arabs or the people of the Maghreb will benefit in the long run. And it's worth reminding ourselves that culturally neither group necessarily sees democracy as a benefit. Even the ones who pay lip service to it when they're protesting. EDIT: An afterthought... a few years ago the chattering classes were getting all excited about Ukraine's "Orange Revolution" After that Yanukovich just sat back, watched the pro-Western parties fight each other to a standstill and got re-elected. Now he's pursing rather dubious corruption charges against former PM Timoschenko, and one opposition MP has been jailed for - wait for it - employing a driver above the legal age limit. And these are people who are supposed to be a lot more "like us" than the Arabs.... Edited 21 Feb 11, 8:24 AM by Ian_2007 |
