Internalised transphobia & culture of victim hood (10)

Alongside my personal frustration with it (which included the fact that people there at my local remembrance vigil were reading poems basically equating the hate speech they were familiar with to the murders, shootings and stabbings they were going to be reading about) there's also the fact that there's a distinctly political edge to this creation of collective victim imagery, and the idea that we're some sort of endangered species. It's not a neutral sort of wrong-headedness.

I think because of the way hate-crime legislation works in Britain, and because of how many people are prepared to buy into it as a system of protecting people who are subject to abuse on the basis of their social subgroup, a lot of people feel the need to create and re-affirm trans people as a "vulnerable" category, to tell and re-tell terrifying stories about what happens to poor unfortunates *like* us (but frequently not the individuals telling the scary stories, and frequently with no context about other factors contributing to victim being treated as a safe/disposable target, such as youth, poverty, ethnic minority status, disability, working in grey/black markets with low safety, etc).

Personally I think it's part of some people trying to work us into a pre-existing system which is quite patronising and condescending at the outset.

ETA: I've had a fair bit of direct physical violence myself for being trans, and I'm not saying everyone who talks about it knows nothing about it. I'm more saying that there is also separately to that a wider push to (for instance) equate the word "tranny" with actual violence against trans people. There are (I mean this in all honesty) people lobbying and trying to educate people in power that the word "tranny" is a term of abuse that primarily exists preceding violent attacks (which is bollocks to anyone with an awareness of a local "Tranny Club" whether they choose to go hang out at it or not). There are people in the "PC Brigade" (that I'm so frequently accused of being a member of) who will use that sort of word-banning trickery to get trans people using "banned words" prevented from being involved in consultation areas, in policy making, activism, etc. There are people hijacking violent imagery to basically advance themselves as trans lobbyists and activists, without actually directly doing anything to respond to or deal with what violence there is that is targetted at trans people. And in order to sustain this rubbish, they build a wider consensus that trans people are at constant risk of violent attack. Of course on some level *everyone* is at some infinitesimally small risk of violent attack at any given moment, but it's not reasonable or credible to argue that this is a particular day to day concern for all trans people. I think probably some of them are just worried they won't be taken seriously if they just took the usual crime stats route and looked to see if the justice system was giving the same sort of results in cases where victims were trans as it was where victims are not, or doing surveys through local cop shops to make sure they're not trying to put people off recording transphobia as a motive on crime logs or similar.

I think fear culture is massively damaging in general. When I talk about oppression and rights I'm talking about the fact that trans people are much less likely to succeed at job interviews than the equally qualified cis counterparts, etc, not trying to suggest that we're each individually suffering terribly. Some trans people do great for themselves. The average on the other hand is pretty poor, and I try to be specific about what I mean where I can.

moo

Edited 12 Dec 10, 7:55 PM by foibey

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Edited 12 Dec 10, 8:37 PM by Empress_Martine

Doing sex work is being fetishised either way - as a woman, as a trans person, as a rubber fan, as a domme stereotype, or whatever.. and so on. So I apologise for leaving that reference in as it wasn't supposed to stay.

I did make that initial assumption though, not because I don't think trans people are valid sex workers just as people, but just because I know from a number of trans people and cis people who have done or considered sex work, that identifiable trans people are not usually welome in regular sex work amongst colleagues OR clients where non trans men and women usually work (as you've pointed out).

It's pretty hard to stay patient and kind when people are being so downright nasty to others (including my missus) and the person I was responding to was consistently being nasty to anyone who doesn't agree with her bigoted views. Happy to call others for fetish (who may or may not have fetish, we don't have fetish for trans stuff!) and yet are hypocrites who are quite happy to cash in on fetishists and be an object of fetish. I felt that part was fair enough to call given their belief that TG (but I think they mean TV) people are fetishists and that TS people just aren't.

Your post above is utterly correct and of course I agree and apologise profusely for my initial stupid error and the sort of prejudice such sloppiness can spread. Don't think the posts up now cos threads replying to reported posts have been removed.

In general,I'm in the same camp as foibey on this.

Dennis

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Edited 12 Dec 10, 10:31 PM by Degenerate

Now, with regard to working/advertising oneself as trans or working as a presumed-cis person, I certainly understand the difference. In the sex industry the genitals you have matter a lot more than in most careers. People do want to know not only the basic type of genitals you have (innie or outie?) but details like whether they are shaved/waxed, circumcised, how much lubrication and/or cum you can produce, etc. This means that one has a big decision to make about how one sells onseself- as an out trans person or not? If you are working as a prostitute and prefer to work as presumed-cis when you have not had genital surgery you have to limit your activities and perhaps your earnings (although kink is a very good route to take if you know what you're doing with it, and can maintain a good wage for Tops who want to remain stone and not out themselves as trans.) On the other hand, a postsurgery transsexual person may not pass perfectly as cis and so be very out as trans, to attract those clients who fetishise or at least are fine with this, and they may remain stone and not challenge assumptions that they are pre-op for similar but inverse reasons that pre-op/non-op trans people who want to pass as cis do.

I've noticed that it often matters very much to people the type of genitals I have -or that they assume I have- even when we are both clear that they won't be used during play. This is rather strange IMO.

Edited 12 Dec 10, 10:36 PM by Hermaphroditus

I think it should be individuals saying I've been discriminated against, and so have you, so can we act collectively to stop it?

"Yet I rejoice in the great harm done me, for this reason only, that I am more mine being yours, than were I mine." - Michelangelo

But there are differing ideas of what constitutes acceptable means of stopping it, and acceptable costs for doing so, no?

Giving the example of the Gender Recognition Act: the under 18s were sold down the river: while (IMHO) excessive attention was paid into how the act affected later transitioners, non-ops, etc. As someone who transitioned the moment she escaped her parents influence, would have done so earlier given the opportunity, and who had friends who would have been affected by the age cut-off, I disagreed vehemently with how I was misrepresented during the supposed consultation.

As another example, and playing real devil's advocate here: it's not at all in my interest for the public's image of a trans-person to be updated. Given the current difference between the stereotyped image portrayed in the media and myself, my chance of being read will be increased if the public perception were improved. Why would I want to be co-opted into any awareness campaign?

Anyway, this seems to be veering the topic off to become a carbon copy of previous ones, and I'd prefer that it stayed on track - I'd hope we can all agree we don't need a repeat of that fiasco.

Edited 13 Dec 10, 1:16 AM by lis0rp

Clearly the Gender Recognition Act seems to be a badly drafted law in need of reform,so it gives more protection to under eighteens and evens out with later transitions etc.

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Edited 13 Dec 10, 1:26 AM by Empress_Martine

That doesn't make any sense. It's the opposite of what Lis0rp said.

moo

I think like you say lis0rp, even devil's advocating, updating image just provides more opportunity for people to update their discriminatory practice. That includes the practice of treating everyday transsexual people who have been "clocked" or whatever differently from cissexual people of the same gender - that's discriminatory and noone owes it to anyone else to put their neck on the chopping block by making it easier for people to identify their differences (either by updating people's understanding of what transsexual people look like or by wearing a pink triangle or any other means).

This is a sort of parallel to educating the world in "politically correct/acceptable" language. Widespread education about the right way to say things ends up mostly with more transphobes shouting "oi, it's a transsexual" instead of "tranny alert" or "gender bender". At the end of the education exercise noone has gained anything in real discrimination/abuse terms. The abuse has just changed shape.

I think for those of us actively involved in campaigning against discrimination we need to find other more direct means to push for equality, such as campaigning for people to be treated equally *regardless* of status, so that when people are publicly seen to be transsexual or transgender or transvestite or whatever the result is less discriminatory.

moo

Edited 13 Dec 10, 10:05 AM by foibey

http://empressm7.uboot.com/ Vampire pro/lifestyle ts dom and switch. Age play mummy/aunty/AB ,medical play , domestic ,sexual energy and outdoor specialist. "Beyond the government,above the police ."