26 Nov 10, 8:45 AM
lis0rp
UK(YO), 3 yrs
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relaxed1 wrote:
I suspect (though of course don't know) that a man or woman who had endured the tortuous process of transition would find it pretty offensive to be described as anything other than their 'new' identity.
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Context is king. Pretty much every time I register with a new doctor I wheel it out to stop the otherwise interminable hassling regarding contraception, cervical smears, period regularity, etc. etc. |
26 Nov 10, 8:48 AM
Scribbles
UK(RH), 4 yrs
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AshUK wrote:
I do have some sympathy with the trans community on this one. Must be difficult feeling marginalised like that.
But I struggle a bit with this ' cis ' malarkey. It just feels counter-intuitive to relabel a very large group of people in order to make a smaller group of people feel better ?
In the same way, I'm ginger. Would it be acceptable to refer to all you blondes and brunettes as NGPs ( Non-ginger people ) just to make myself feel more normal ?
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But if you wanted to say NGP, nobody (here's hoping!) would object. It's not as though trans people want others to go round with cis stamped on their foreheads, it's just a term rather than a circumlocution. Those who don't like it can use another word (or actually a long collection of them). |
26 Nov 10, 9:17 AM
Beau_Tox
UK(CB), 7 yrs
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lis0rp wrote:
fluffy_welsh_angel wrote:
bit they are not BIOLOGICALLY FEMALE are they. Hence the difference.
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So you're saying we're biologically male? And you don't think that's the least bit belittling of our identity, and thus transphobic?
The problem with your nice, easy, simplifications is that through twists of genetics there are XX men and XY women who were born that way, and thus the simplification is not true. According to El Wiki, 1% of all live births show signs of sexual ambiguity, i.e. the "biological sex" is neither entirely the idealised male nor female. So what percentage of live births have a sexual defect where you *can't* see it, inside the gonads, in the brain, or goodness knows where else? The *only* reliable measure of whether someone is a man, a woman, or something else is to *ask* them - if this weren't the truth, this entire tranny shitstorm wouldn't exist in the first place, and we'd be locked away in a cozy asylum somewhere.
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I didn't know the percentage but I was going to make this point at some point.
I'm not certain about the Wiki reference but the bottom line is that quite a lot of people are neither entirely genetically male nor entirly female. Many people have mosaicism, where parts of them are genetically different genders at the chromasomal level.
Which then leads to developmental definitions of gender. However, some people with mosaicism will have ambiguous development of their sexual organs.
The story of American athlete Stella walsh is the most well-known example of this that I can think of. Toxic
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26 Nov 10, 9:33 AM
fluffy_welsh_angel
UK(DN), 6 yrs
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lis0rp wrote:
fluffy_welsh_angel wrote:
bit they are not BIOLOGICALLY FEMALE are they. Hence the difference.
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So you're saying we're biologically male? And you don't think that's the least bit belittling of our identity, and thus transphobic?
The problem with your nice, easy, simplifications is that through twists of genetics there are XX men and XY women who were born that way, and thus the simplification is not true. According to El Wiki, 1% of all live births show signs of sexual ambiguity, i.e. the "biological sex" is neither entirely the idealised male nor female. So what percentage of live births have a sexual defect where you *can't* see it, inside the gonads, in the brain, or goodness knows where else? The *only* reliable measure of whether someone is a man, a woman, or something else is to *ask* them - if this weren't the truth, this entire tranny shitstorm wouldn't exist in the first place, and we'd be locked away in a cozy asylum somewhere.
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I'm not saying you are biologically male, I am saying you ARE NOT biologically female. Get the difference???? Mew
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26 Nov 10, 9:43 AM
Beverley
UK(CT), 11 yrs
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lis0rp wrote:
relaxed1 wrote:
I suspect (though of course don't know) that a man or woman who had endured the tortuous process of transition would find it pretty offensive to be described as anything other than their 'new' identity.
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Context is king. Pretty much every time I register with a new doctor I wheel it out to stop the otherwise interminable hassling regarding contraception, cervical smears, period regularity, etc. etc.
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The experiences of being female, in other words.
I have no issues at all with transgender but I do find it ironic that the things which go with being a mere woman are irrelevant to some people for reasons seemingly beyond biology. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Edited 26 Nov 10, 9:51 AM by Beverley
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26 Nov 10, 9:46 AM
proccie
UK(HP), 6 yrs
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lis0rp wrote:
This is out of hand.
I didn't want to post on this topic any more, as I didn't feel I had any more to really contribute. I am tired too, which probably isn't helping.
I kinda want to shout at people. This is an infuriating topic because you're devaluing Trans people through your continued trivialisation of cis as a term, and you're talking to trans people as if they have no idea what they're talking about.
You don't seem to want to understand, you just seem to want to say 'stop it', and carry on ignoring a minority that has a history of getting screwed over. (Kinda like most minorities really, until their movements got started proper.)
This is going round and around, and getting nowhere.
Cis is an important term, for many reasons that have been given, over and over, and now the bottom of the barrel is being scraped for examples that I'm hoping will make a difference, but your ignorance so far isn't promising there either.
Oh yeah, going to bed. Don't stay up bickering all night.
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This is what I object to. The shrillness, the lecturing tone, the "You don't understand 'cos you're Cis."
Well I got a dick, I feel male and I am happy with it: I am "normal" using the mathematical idea of the norm. If you have a problem with that, then that is your problem, not mine. No other label is required.
I have friends who have had sex changes, I have friends who cross dress and I probably have friends who are undecided about both of these and are thinking about it; great, no problem. I can sympathise and be a friend. I object though, to being told that I cannot empathise because I am "cis".
How does anyone who is truly trans know how it feels to be non-trans?
If you truly want acceptance stop lecturing us and just be what you are.
Zen S&M: The sound of one hand slapping.
'()_/)
(>'.'<)
(")_(") < MINE!
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26 Nov 10, 9:52 AM
fluffy_welsh_angel
UK(DN), 6 yrs
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proccie wrote:
lis0rp wrote:
This is out of hand.
I didn't want to post on this topic any more, as I didn't feel I had any more to really contribute. I am tired too, which probably isn't helping.
I kinda want to shout at people. This is an infuriating topic because you're devaluing Trans people through your continued trivialisation of cis as a term, and you're talking to trans people as if they have no idea what they're talking about.
You don't seem to want to understand, you just seem to want to say 'stop it', and carry on ignoring a minority that has a history of getting screwed over. (Kinda like most minorities really, until their movements got started proper.)
This is going round and around, and getting nowhere.
Cis is an important term, for many reasons that have been given, over and over, and now the bottom of the barrel is being scraped for examples that I'm hoping will make a difference, but your ignorance so far isn't promising there either.
Oh yeah, going to bed. Don't stay up bickering all night.
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This is what I object to. The shrillness, the lecturing tone, the "You don't understand 'cos you're Cis."
Well I got a dick, I feel male and I am happy with it: I am "normal" using the mathematical idea of the norm. If you have a problem with that, then that is your problem, not mine. No other label is required.
I have friends who have had sex changes, I have friends who cross dress and I probably have friends who are undecided about both of these and are thinking about it; great, no problem. I can sympathise and be a friend. I object though, to being told that I cannot empathise because I am "cis".
How does anyone who is truly trans know how it feels to be non-trans?
If you truly want acceptance stop lecturing us and just be what you are.
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*this x 1000000000*
(though i get the feeling this is going to be shot down in flames too as have all other reasoning that people have given) Mew
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26 Nov 10, 9:52 AM
River_Deep
UK, 6 yrs
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I had to go and google this to find out what it was as had never come across it and I hope I never do again.
The more I read on IC the more I think I am too simple in my thoughts. Man or woman, both human. I call as I see until I am corrected and then apologise for my error and move on. It is not what you say or do but the way you say or do it
"Russian roulette is not the same without a gun and baby when its love, if it's not rough ,then it is not fun"
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26 Nov 10, 9:54 AM
lis0rp
UK(YO), 3 yrs
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Beverley wrote:
The experiences of being female, in other words. |
If that's the sum total of your female life experience, then I'm very thankful my life has had a lot more to offer me. |
26 Nov 10, 9:57 AM
Beverley
UK(CT), 11 yrs
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Well said. Years and years ago I was criticised for being "colour blind non racist" i.e. not actively positively discriminating in favour of people who were not white. I was then lectured about not seeing my idiot boss as first and foremost a woman of Scottish ancestry. I asked what I was, got told I was English and pointed out that if we had to play that game I was a woman of Polish ancestry and she should discriminate towards me if I had to discriminate towards her.
Which made the whole thing meaningless.
I was criticised for seeing people as people. Bollocks. People are people and deserve good treatment until they prove themselves an arse. Whether they get good treatment is another matter: life is cruel.
Rather than alienating others, be very glad you weren't born somewhere like Yemen... Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Edited 26 Nov 10, 9:58 AM by Beverley
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