This post is on the Pro-Mistresses etc web board (moved from BDSM Businesses).
| Fri 13 Aug 10, 1:47 PM methosivanhoe UK(DA), 6 yrs   |
Can anyone help me with this, because currently the law seems to be a complete shambles regarding this matter and i can't find one clear cut answer to anything... Basically, i want to know where the law stands regarding a BDSM dungeon used specifically for hiring out to Dominatrix' and also used for filming and photoshoots... Now, here comes the waffle... From what i've been able to find out, the law clarly states that any premesis where more than one woman is engaged in a sexual service... and yes, being a dominatrix is classed as a sexual service, classifies the dungeon as a brothel... But that isn't neccersarily a bad thing... Controlling another adult's prostitution is now only illegal if you gain from it (or know that someone else does). Looked at another way, gaining from someone else's prostitution is now legal: it's the control for gain that's illegal. So what's the actual definition of CONTROL and GAIN? "Gain" is defined in Section 54 OF THE Sexual Offences Act 2003 as... (a) any financial advantage, including the discharge of an obligation to pay or the provision of goods or services (including sexual services) gratuitously or at a discount; or (b) the goodwill of any person which is or appears likely, in time, to bring financial advantage. So sex workers' families should now be free of the risk of being charged with "living on the earnings of prostitution", however owners of escort agencies and brothels as well as 'pimps' will still be at risk. In addition, it is specifically illegal to own or run a 'disorderly house' or brothel, anywhere more than one woman or man resorts to for non-marital sex. As this doesn't necessarily have to be at the same time, or involve sexual intercouse or, indeed, any payment, a very wide range of places are therefore 'brothels', including many hotels. So from what I can actually decipher from the legal bollocks, it seems that it's legal to be a sex worker (Dominatrix) at a brothel (Read dungeon, but sadly dungeons are classified as brothels in the eyes of the law), and it's legal for brothel's to exist, but it's actually illegal to run / manage one? is that right? For the purposes of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 (revised 2003) the Crown Prosecution Service uses the following guidelines: Section 33, keeping a brothel; Section 34, a landlord letting premises for use as a brothel; Section 35, a tenant permitting premises to be used as a brothel. Section 36, a tenant permitting premises to be used for prostitution. A brothel, for these purposes, is defined as "a place where people of opposite sexes (but see para below) are allowed to resort for illicit intercourse, whether the women are common prostitutes or not". It is not essential to show that the premises are in fact used for the purposes of prostitution (which involves payment for services rendered); a brothel exists where women offer sexual intercourse without charging. Also premises which are resorted to for the purposes of lewd homosexual and sadomasochistic practices shall be treated as a brothel for the purposes of Sections 33 to 35 of the Act (Section 6, Sexual Offences Act 1967). The same now applies to Section 36 by virtue of Schedule 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. So being a dominatrix is legal, visiting a dominatrix is legal... on both counts as long as no marks are left that are classed as more than 'trifling'... but it's illigal to run a BDSM dungeon as you are classified as running a brothel which is illigal. So a mistress can run her own dungeon, but no slaves or other mistresses may work there right? Can anyone help me try and decypher any more of this legal bollocks because currently i can't make head nor tail of the actual legal ramifications of running a dungeon... M | ||||||
| 13 Aug 10, 2:25 PM Lady_Anna_Bradford UK(BD), 5 yrs   |
This isn't restricted to women. It is more than one person.
It is illegal to control AND gain. If you make bookings and take a cut from those bookings you are controlling AND gaining.
The Disorderly House Act was abolished. It doesn't exist any more.
Yes. The Dommes who work at the dungeon will be fine because they aren't breaking any laws. The person who owns the dungeon risks having all their computers confiscated and their accounts frozen while the police try and establish 'control and gain'. This can take months.
Right.
There are plenty of premises where more than one Mistress works. The police will usually leave you alone as long as your premises doesn't cause or create a nuisance namely to other residents in the area. As soon as your premises comes to the attention of the police, usually caused by complaints (usually about parking), they may raid you. They may also take the local press with them. It's a risk I am not prepared to take myself. Only I work from my premises. But then I know plenty of people run dungeons for hire without any sort of problems.
"If no sexual offence is being committed it seems very odd indeed that there should be an offence for having an image of something which was not an offence," Lord Wallace of Tankerness | ||||||
| 13 Aug 10, 2:29 PM methosivanhoe UK(DA), 6 yrs |
Thank you very much for clearing most of that up... I actually wasn't aware that the Disorderly House law had been completely abolished, that actually clears things up quite a bit :D The thing i've actually trying to ascertain, is the Control and Gain act of the law... does this mean that a mistress and a manager may work together in a dungeon as a partnership, but if it went to courts, they would have to prove that the Mistress was not being controlled by the manager and he was not gaining from the sexual practices in the dungeon? It just seems a bit confusing at the moment to be honest lol M | ||||||
| 13 Aug 10, 2:37 PM methosivanhoe UK(DA), 6 yrs |
And actually one last question... from what i understand it is completely illegal to live off the earnings of a sex worker or make money out of her, as it's classified as gaining off immoral earnings or covered under the 'control and gain' section of the law, correct? Now, for this matter I have to question various publications like Forum magazine and the Daily Sport, amongst various other sources... As you only have to look in these publications which receive money for prostitutes' adverts... now surely that is gaining from sex work, correct? They're gaining money from the advertisement of the sex industry, specifically either prostitution or domination services... but that's legal... so where exactly does the law end regarding Gain? M | ||||||
| 13 Aug 10, 2:49 PM Lady_Anna_Bradford UK(BD), 5 yrs |
I think the only way you could do it is to provide the premises. If the Mistress controls all the aspects of her business, answering the phone, taking bookings, handling the cash then she is in control. As soon as the dungeon owner, you, start doing any of that you would be seen as taking some of the control. Add the fee of the hire to that and it can look like control and gain. You'd have to make sure that you never got involved with the clients or the running of her business. So whereas you may think it just being helpful to help with managing the bookings or putting their cash in your safe, you are stepping over a legal line. You'd need to look at online booking systems where the Mistresses deal with their own logistics. Never handle cash from the clients and never answer their phones. The police would look for evidence of any of this to support their prosecution. You'd also have to make sure that your location is untouchable in terms of neighbour complaints and make sure that both Mistresses and clients are as discreet as possible so as not to attract attention. This is a relevant page. http://sw5.info/maids.htm Look at the Working in a Brothel section. You would do well to get a contract written up where your duties as owner begin and end to cover your own back. But then you shouldn't knowingly rent your premises for 'prostitution' I believe. This may be usual too. I'm not sure how English and Scottish law differs though http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/191023-...
If you are really serious about setting up a dungeon you must get legal advice. Don't take anything I say as gospel. I'm not always right
"If no sexual offence is being committed it seems very odd indeed that there should be an offence for having an image of something which was not an offence," Lord Wallace of Tankerness | ||||||
| 13 Aug 10, 2:58 PM methosivanhoe UK(DA), 6 yrs |
you're actually being really helpful here, thanks a lot... i've also registered on the PDUK website, one i'm sure both Mistresses i live with will love as well... Now, i've actually been through SW5 a lot, several times over with notepads scrawled with information from them lol The main part / problem is the Control and Gain law... now, the information i've been able to gather states that you do not both gain from AND have control over (not just 'aid') the work... So to actively help or manage the dungeon is legal from what i can see, so being paid is fine in the eyes of the law... as long as i'm not controlling any act of the business... M | ||||||
| 13 Aug 10, 3:00 PM Peccavi 4 yrs |
You could bite the bullet and ask for a meeting with local vice (or whatever they call themselves) to pose your questions and illustrate responsibility. A lot depends on where you live, the local big wigs' stance and what the councillors want for the area. The law itself is a blanket to be enacted when the police discover a problem but they may be happy with a responsible woman keeping things 'off the streets' and informing them what is or isn't going on. They will know, for example, that they don't have to start considering a new little enclave of illegal immigrants who may have been enslaved. Similarly, if the dungeon is sizeable, your local fire officer could be invited to give you a once-over. Good relations with the professionals whose job it is to regulate businesses is always useful. You will then have peace of mind. | ||||||
| 13 Aug 10, 3:05 PM Lady_Anna_Bradford UK(BD), 5 yrs |
Yes, you'd have to make sure you have a clear distinction between manage the dungeon as an owner ie heat it, light it, and clean it, and manage the business ie fill it with clients. If you intend to have the two Mistresses you live with work there you may have serious problems in convincing the police that you don't control and gain. You'd only ever look like a pimp. "If no sexual offence is being committed it seems very odd indeed that there should be an offence for having an image of something which was not an offence," Lord Wallace of Tankerness | ||||||
| 13 Aug 10, 3:23 PM methosivanhoe UK(DA), 6 yrs |
Well i would only be living with one mistress and would not be actively gaining from any aspect of the business... but likewise, i am sure the reverse is true, it's fully legal to gain from the business as long as there is no control over any of the actions participated on the premesis... This is clearing it up a lot... as for the idea of talking with the local vice, i've actually thought about that and deemed it quite a good idea once i've narrowed down all legal implications i can... basically so i can show that i've fully done my homework so to speak lol M | ||||||
| 13 Aug 10, 7:27 PM Peccavi 4 yrs |
Yep, you've nothing to lose if you contact them before investing in the dungeon. Also, read the local papers' websites for an idea of the local council's feelings on the local sex industry if you want to be really cautious. Even if the police do investigate you, it is the decision of the CPS to follow anything up. Keep records of your overtures to the police and fire officer (contact by snail mail is always good for this) and after any conversation with them, follow it up with 'Just to re cap - it is agreed that da-da-da', so having written proof of your real intention to operate legally and proof that they had not informed you that you were breaking any law. |
