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Question for the Lady Subs - the moral maze (27)

This post is on the Other BDSM web board.

11 May 10, 12:29 PM
Renovant
UK(CB), 4 yrs

Brilliantly written post!

Slight interjection for thought, I don't believe those feelings are entirely gender specific (slight hijack? sorry).

I personally had for years, and to a degree still have major issues and struggles with the idea that I like to 'abuse' women (even though it's completely consensual) and that I am in some way legitimising those sick bastards or worse convincing myself that I AM one of them.

Yet I know that I love the women I'm with and if anyone hurt them they wouldn't know what the fuck hit them.

To be more post specific I think that very fact that you show that you're thinking about these moral ambiguities is respect enough to the people who have suffered such violence and reflects well upon your stature as an intelligent, confident human being, capable of choosing what they want. It's qualities like that which I would seek in a sub/ hope a sub seeks in a Dom.

Some might argue a true Dom would be completely confident with himself, completely single minded blah blah blah, but I personally think that any man who doesn't occasionally question what he's doing isn't safe, sane or consensual.

Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...

11 May 10, 1:01 PM
totallycoverme
UK(M), 4 yrs

MissPlum wrote:
Question for the Lady Subs - the moral maze

So I expect this has been covered here before but I haven't seen anything recently.

Does anyone else struggle a bit with the feminisit element to BDSM? (This is such a massive issue it could be spread out to loads of other stuff so I'll try to be fairly concise).

Sometimes I feel a bit of guilt for the fantasies I have about being abused by men -particularly when it comes to rape and violence things. Some of it is because most other women who experience violence and sexual abuse don't choose to have it done to them but are, disgustingly, inflicted with it.

I don't feel I am disrespecting their suffering by allowing myself to be abused for my own pleasure -on the grounds that it doesn't cause me any unhappiness whatsoever so it is worlds apart from what they are experiencing; but I am sure they would be horrified to think that there's women out there that allow men to do that to them, and I can't shake that feeling of guilt that because they'd think that, I ultimately AM doing them a disservice.

How much responsibility towards other women should we take when we choose to allow men to do those things to us? -I don't doubt that there ARE men (I've met them) who feel that when a sub agrees to having those things done to her, it's what all women really want and, on some levels, re-enforces their potential belief that women are there to be abused. Just think about some of the shit that lands in your memo-box and some of the characters on there.

I suspect there are a few of us that have subbed to a 'bit of a bastard' (not neccessarily a rapist axe murder but maybe someone who Doesn't really like women all that much and Doesn't respect them like he should) just to satisfy that urge for submission. We might have come off from it unscathed but what about the vanilla girlfriend he gets with some other time who Doesn't appreciate those things but receives them anyway. We are not be to blame but that doesn't take all responsibility of our heads does it?

So what are your opinions and ways of dealing with these issues if you have them?

And on another note if anybody can be arsed, what about sub women who aren't innately sub but have become so through being abused; almost as a state of conditioning -as I understand it, it isn't that unusual. I sometimes feel like it's ok for me to do those things because I've had a really privilaged happy life and know I'm naturally kinky ('cos my earliest memory is hiding behind the fireguard when my mum hoovered, pretending I was in a prison cell and feeling *fuzzy* inside) but not for them because theirs isn't 'real' and is as such ultimately damaging. It seems so arrogant and patronising to say that but it's another feeling I can't shake or figure out.

Ahhh it's a moral maze. A pickle in fact.

I think being a female submissive embraces feminism.

It takes strength to submit and it takes strength to embrace the choices that we have as a result of the feminist movement.

So yeah, tis all good

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice xx

11 May 10, 1:03 PM
viragoangel
UK(FY), 5 yrs

I for one have similar guilt issues at times. My sister is a born victim and i worry that she will one day get into a relationship that goes too far. Currently she's in a "good" marriage..but who knows. I wonder, like you, if by submitting to my own selfish needs and desires i am in fact perpetuating the circle of violence some women endure. I can't be responsible for every other woman..or their choices..so i carry on. Doesn't stop the guilt at times tho'.

It isn't JUST about BDSM tho for me. As a christian i feel guilty when i see children starving on the news whilst mine munch on chocolate. I cry for kids of 7 and 8 working to support themselves whilst my 19 year old son plays on his expensive computer games console. I feel guilty if i go away for the night with Sir and leave my husband at home with the children..tho' i have my families blessing.

I think if we didn't go thru' life wondering what impact we were..or may be..having on other people then it would be a far worse world then it already is. All we can do is help where we can and try to minimise direct negative impact. To care is not a crime. Nor is it wrong to accept that we are all different and we must accept that.

jules.x

11 May 10, 1:08 PM
Belasarius
UK(M), 8 yrs

totallycoverme wrote:

I think being a female submissive embraces feminism.

It takes strength to submit and it takes strength to embrace the choices that we have as a result of the feminist movement.

So yeah, tis all good

This. Kudos.

My goal - to save women from nature (Dior)
Follow me on twitter: @belasarius99

11 May 10, 1:10 PM
othyim
NL, 3 yrs

In my work, I regularly (like every few months) am faced with the fact that I have to put abused and battered women (mostly Muslima�s btw, which makes it even worse) in safe houses. Every time this happens, it takes like two weeks before I am able to stop thinking about it and feel totally appalled, angry and generally disgusted about what is done to them. I am totally unable to keep a 'professional distance� in these cases. It sickens me to the point that I am actually feeling obnouxious sometimes.

Still, I dont feel any guilt towards them on what I am doing. For mine is a conscious choice. I have that choice. I�m not in any way letting them down by exercising the right to have a choice. The opposite, actually.

I strongly believe, as a feminist, that every women should have the right to decide for herself. There is no contradiction for me in, on a personal level, as a personal choice, wanting to submit and wanting to be used and hurt, and the fact that I am, on the other hand, a feminist and I loath all sorts of non-consentual abuse.

I dont think I�m compartimentalising, as these events have fine tuned my �radar� on what is wrong and what is still sane, especially in a D/s, and it especially made it more easy to dismiss men that actually are either afraid of women, or have very strange ideas on what women (subs or not) want.

For I have the choice to give up choice.

Edited 11 May 10, 8:19 PM by othyim

11 May 10, 1:10 PM
slutling_angel
4 yrs

the_one wrote:
Interesting thread. In my experience I have met quite a few female subs who are strong feminists generally but enjoy submitting in their private lives. Some of these are women in professions who actively support and defend women who are in abusive relationships (as opposed to consensual BDSM), for them the guilt bit is quite simple, when it's consensual they don't feel guilt but they'll do everything they can to fight non consensual abuse.

That's how I feel about it all ^^^^^^^^.

On another note; years ago I got out of an abusive relationship, my childhood was abusive. I am by no means conditioned by my past, in fact quite the opposite.

The day I got that man out of my life, my last words were " NO ONE WILL EVER RAISE A HAND TO ME AGAIN, MALE OR FEMALE"!!.

Now when I first was introduced to BDSM and the scene, it was assumed I was a Dominant. 6 Months down the line I came out as a Switch. I enjoy my submission but like many I am overly careful who I submit to. Makes sense.

Now for sometime, I did struggle, with what I was doing and craving for, as it went against the grain. Bizarrely though it actually helped me, I now see it for what it is (me consenting to enjoy and fulfill my sexual/kinky desires).

For the first time up until I was over 39 I enjoyed my sex life.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do". ( Confucius)

11 May 10, 4:47 PM
Thistle
US, 4 yrs

Arbuthnot wrote:
That, of course, begs the question of how many "seems nice" men turn out not to be.

I share the_one's hope, but what do women think?

I think that it's just like anything else. The bad guys get all the press and the good guys get very little recognition. I'm certain there are far more good guys than bad.

love the brave but avoid cowards, knowing the gratitude of cowards is small ~Praxilla of Sicyon

11 May 10, 4:54 PM
SolidGoldBrass
UK, 2 yrs

lozzlepop wrote:

SolidGoldBrass wrote:
And finally it's fairly important to speak out if you do witness abuse in BDSM contexts - if you meet a newbie sub who confides in you that his/her dom is pressuring him/her to do things that are too scary, too painful or not a turn on but the dom is insisting that these things are 'necessary' or 'proper' BDSM you need to correct this mistake and encourage the sub to tell the dom to go fuck him/herself and learn some manners.

Hear Hear. I would like to expand that to all contexts though.

Yes, definitely.

11 May 10, 7:38 PM
towellady
2 yrs

Those are some really interesting responses, thanks very much to everyone who replied.

I shall scurry off and wank over a spot of De Sade with a clear(ish) conscience now. Despite the fact he was an ultra-violent convicted rapist peadophile. Dude had a way with words.

My manner of thinking, so you say, cannot be approved. Do you suppose I care? A poor fool indeed is he who adopts a manner of thinking for others!

11 May 10, 7:55 PM
venus_flames
UK(WR), 5 yrs
£

My gosh there are so many intelligent people on here. I don't have a huge amount of experience, so look at things in a very simplistic way. My instinct was to say, 'but it's with consent!' and that is the major difference and reason why you should feel at ease.

Although it may feel like a rape, look like a rape and even damage like a rape, the fact that at some point you had consented to it, it is not a rape. Some men would be appauled at the thought of simulating such an act, while others would feel turned on by it, but I would like to think as we all do, have the sense and ability to contain and control those feelings and desires for appropriate times and with someone who does consent.

We are all adults and we are all able to distinguish between right and wrong. Sex without consent is wrong, end of! Not yours, mine or anyone elses responsibility, just because we may wish to delve in to that scenario.

http://www.funfashion.co.uk All hand crafted and custom made.

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