Posted by skyfox
on Sun 9 May 10, 6:58 PM to skyfox's blog.
This book review in the New York Times about anti-semitism in literature says "Early in this book, Julius links anti-Semitism to sadism. He might have done even more with this, since sadomasochism is something of an English vice, and is so much a school-experience of the upper social class." Sadomasochism is apparently also known as "the English vice" to the French. Is sadomasochism an "English vice"?
What does that mean, "English vice"? Does it mean that sadomasochism is unique to the British? Or that it is more prevalant among the British? Is it the British who are the most sadistic on the planet? Or something entirely different?
I think it's pretty well recognised that the term BDSM is American in origin, but Robert Bienvenue traced American fetish style back to European influences, suggesting that sm is historically rooted in Europe. Britain has had a history of sm porn, even from the early days of photography/film, right? But surely it was as common among the same classes in France and Germany in the same time period.
Unless "sadomasochism" refers to events such as caning, another great historical British fetish. Is the history of fetish in Britain different than the history of fetish in other countries? (especially in its practices) De Sade was French, Masoch was Austrian, so how can "sadomasochism" be uniquely British?
It's really impossible to say whether sadomasochism is more prevalent in Britain than in other countries. I suppose one could look into the various historical porn records to find out if there is a British domination (so to speak) of the production, but is that even a marker? America produces a lot of porn, but does that mean Americans have more sex? Doubtful. And for surveys, forget about it, the only sm survey's I've seen are American.
Perhaps people just think the British are sadomasochists. Maybe it has something to do with the strength of class as a marker in British society. But then, what makes the British class system different from, say, the Indian caste system? Or the Japanese feudal society?
I don't really understand why people call sadomasochism "the English vice". Any ideas?
| 9 May 10, 7:13 PM BlueVelvet UK(B), 9 yrs  |
Hmmm Spanking is known as the 'English Vice' as far as I'm aware.... www.VelvetEden.co.uk The fabulous,friendly, BDSM play night! | ||
| 9 May 10, 7:19 PM frogman UK(SE), 5 yrs |
I've seen a few things on this here interweb thing. I'm pretty sure it goes on elsewhere. | ||
| 9 May 10, 7:20 PM The_Victorian UK(LE), 2 yrs |
Who cares, I'll except it. Better than being known for a fried breakfast. Abnormally Attracted to Sin - Tori Amos | ||
| 9 May 10, 7:24 PM Masterstoy UK(N), 10 yrs |
A possible reason is that the English (and I use the term very loosely here, 'cos I mean the Brits, but outside of the UK "Britain" is often referred to as "England"), are on the whole, much more civilised than the rest of the so-called developed world. This includes matter relating to sex and sexuality - were the UK goes, the rest of the world follows. Which doesn't necessarily mean that SM was "invented" or practiced here first, but that, being the Brits more open and tolerant than just about anyone else, it's been possible to practice SM relatively openly here before anywhere else. While you can still be outed as an SMer and possibly have repercussions here in the UK, the general attitude is "Is it consensual? Is anybody getting hurt? No? Who cares, then?" On the other hand, elsewhere in Europe it's still seen as something sordid and a "vice", something to be either hidden or practiced in seedy basements where you need a password to get in. Therefore, being openly seen in England, and being considered a vice to be cured of in the rest of the world, "the English vice". | ||
| 9 May 10, 7:34 PM Conan_The_Librarian UK(S), 3 yrs |
The phrase 'the English vice' and it's S&M connotations originate from the common practice of early-Victorian perverts to secure their nipples, testicles and nether-flaps in the worlds first mass-produced bench-vice, the 'John English & Sons Iron Fist Mk I' manufactured at their factory in Birmingham between 1838 and 1845. Do you fear death? Do you fear that dark abyss? All your deeds laid bare, all your sins punished? I can offer you…an escape. | ||
| 9 May 10, 7:55 PM strongarm CH, 6 yrs |
I would have said that Germany, particularly Berlin, and Holland were both more liberal than the UK in BDSM attitudes. Switzerland is less clear. I have no personal experience of Scandinavia, but I hear that they are rather liberal too. Which countries do you think are less liberal than the UK? As to your correct and reasonable description of the misuse of England vs the UK it is perfectly understandable when it is ignorant furriners wot is involved.
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| 9 May 10, 8:31 PM Masterstoy UK(N), 10 yrs |
Well, as I was typing my previous post I was thinking of Holland myself and also considered Scandinavia, but I didn't mention exceptions as, on the whole, the gist of my post still stands. I'm not sure I'd include Germany in the "more liberal than the UK group", I don't have enough experience to say one way or the other. I was specifically thinking about Italy when talking about seedy basements and stuff to be cured of. As for Switzerland, I don't know many Swiss but those I do are anything but tolerant and open minded. The thing about the UK is that, despite the previous government doing all they could to kill off civil liberties, this is still one of the best places to be regardless of any minority affiliation you might have. | ||
| 9 May 10, 11:25 PM MrTom UK, 8 yrs |
The use of the term "The English Vice" dates back to Victorian times, when it was used particularly in France; among other sources, it is noted in Pearsall's study of Victorian sexuality "The Worm In The Bud". I have the book, but it's in my loft somewhere so I quote from memory. According to Pearsall, every French madam kept a good stock of canes available for use on her English clients, who had a particular taste for it. Pearsall links this to the practice of administering discipline in British public schools; offhand I can't evaluate the quality of his evidence in this respect. He does cite a number of letters to newspapers in which ex public schoolboys recall their experiences of being disciplined in this way by their masters, and actually speak of it with some nostalgia, not to say ardour. But actually I don't think it would take very much research into the erotica or pornography of the time to establish that such preferences were widespread across the continent, so I would think that this label was simply one which was coined by someone, and it just stuck.
Edited 9 May 10, 11:28 PM by MrTom | ||
| 10 May 10, 12:02 PM Prunesquallor UK(RG), 7 yrs |
For the same reason we call condoms 'French letters'. | ||
| 10 May 10, 1:59 PM skyfox UK(EH), 5 yrs  |
The British/English thing I apologise for, but English people are more likely to call themselves "British", and it is correct that a large number of people confuse the two terms, and when speaking historically, I feel the two were probably even more closely related, though I can't say for certain. Some interesting ideas here, though. I'm glad for the reference to "The English Vice" in Pearsall -- one for the knowledge bank. But again, is it due to British permissiveness? (Has Britain always been so tolerant of minority sexualities? It seems slightly at odds with the persecution of homosexuality and censorship from previous centuries.) Or perhaps perceived permissiveness? (I recall the Monty Python sketch about the differences between Prodestants and Catholics -- France was a Catholic country, so maybe this was a dig?) It does, from what you guys say, seem to be linked to the physical abuse of one's bottom. (Caning etc) Though the one about the bench vice is intriguing. (You're not pulling my leg, are you?) I'm doubtful about postulations about boarding school discipline -- surely other schools in the same time period had similar punishments. But then, like the area of geographically comparative historical porn, I suppose it remains to be investigated. Perhaps that'll be my next project. Unless someone already did it, in which case point me to it! The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. |
