Immigration (91)

Me neither.

Now, to whom it may concern......

I don't necessarily dismiss all of anyone elses concerns out of hand. Not everyone who considers immigration levels a matter for concern is necessarily a "bigot" - only those who harp on about the subject obsessively and unrealistically as though there are no other important issues at all, who always invariably seem to reveal themselves to be "anti-immigrants" more than "anti-immigration".

Brits who go abroad to continue working and further their careers as many do, because of declining prospects at home in the UK or simply to better their situation where an opportunity arises overseas, are "economic migrants".

"Economic migrants" coming into the UK are doing the exact same thing for the exact same reason, and are the same human beings in every respect except being less typically white and middle class, with the same god-given right as anybody else to try to do the best they can for themselves and their dependants as anyone else, wherever that may take them.

Now any discussion of acceptable immigration levels or immigration controls that begins from that realistic basis of it being a discussion of the fate of real people in the real world, is one that I am quite happy to enter into even-handedly and consider any rational argument that the UK *may* be receiving "more than its share" of migrants, and that it *may* have some net detrimental effect.

However migration is a global issue requiring global solutions. It is an issue that arises because through economic factors, political or ethnic persecution, war or other factors that make people's lives intolerable where they are, they find themselves compelled to take action to improve their situation. And in order to do so they have to be *somewhere*.

But how often do we hear anybody at all who considers immigration to the UK such a huge overriding concern advocate, for instance, a common EU policy on immigration to ensure the UK only accepts "its fair share" relative to our neighbours? Never, so far in my experience of these discussions.

There is no "open door" allowing the mythical uncontrolled "flood" of immigration to the UK. All three major parties have policies that restrict immigration only to admission on humanitarian grounds and meeting skill shortages. But nonetheless, by all means feel free to express concern about immigration into the UK if you rationally still think it presents a problem.

Then, if you want to be taken seriously as a reasonable non-bigoted person, try to propose solutions that actually take account of the global reality - ones that you would consider acceptable if ever factors compelled YOU to have to leave your home country and start a new life.

If you can't be bothered to do that, then you don't really have much to contribute to the debate, do you - you ignorant little Nazi!

I AM THE GOD OF HELL-FIRE!.....but its my lunch break right now

Edited 5 May 10, 5:32 PM by BigOldHector

If I'd meant that I would have said that . I specifically did not say that immigrants are jumping the queue for social housing . What I'm saying is that the substantial numbers of immigrants , many in genuine need and entitled to social housing , are given properties that would otherwise have gone to British born people . [/quote]

And your point is?

Now assuming you are a reasonable person, and you accept the right of anyone legally entering the country in order to work here and contribute to the UK economy to also have a roof over their head as they do so, then surely what you are advocating is that we need more social housing.

What does that have to do with immigration?

I AM THE GOD OF HELL-FIRE!.....but its my lunch break right now

Yes, some of the predictions on the possible effects of climate change are very worrying. And if they should come to be, then some parts of the world might well become uninhabitable.

So based on your "Enlightenment" values, what solution do you propose to what will become a very urgent matter of life and death for the millions of survivors who will be displaced from their home territory.

I AM THE GOD OF HELL-FIRE!.....but its my lunch break right now

And your point is?

Now assuming you are a reasonable person, and you accept the right of anyone legally entering the country in order to work here and contribute to the UK economy to also have a roof over their head as they do so, then surely what you are advocating is that we need more social housing.

What does that have to do with immigration? [/quote]

My point is that , at some level , the scale of immigration gives rise to some very difficult logistical problems . According to www.lga.co.uk there are 1.8 million households on the waiting list for social housing -that is about 4.5 million people .

On top of that some politicians want to give an asylum to illegal entrants . Current levels of new build social housing have fallen to levels last seen in the 1920s . It will take decades to sort out this problem .

We can and should build a lot more social housing but that in turn will lead to other logistical problems . Part of the increase in the housing waiting list can be explained by the levels of divorce and more single people seeking accommodation . It is facile to pretend immigration has nothing to do with it .

" Yeah . Well I love my cigar but I take it out once in a while " Groucho Marx

They are not my Enlightenment values . If you are not familiar with the term " The Enlightenment " you can google it .

On the point you raise , I would suggest we take climate change more seriously . Ultimately I think there will have to be a significant transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor countries to help them cope .

I'm off now to get a welcome mat ready for the Greeks .

" Yeah . Well I love my cigar but I take it out once in a while " Groucho Marx

And the last time I was in a hospital, I was very grateful for the presence of the Chinese Immigrant doctor, who obviously knew what he was talking about and could deal effectively with my medical emergency ...

But your point here is, what, exactly?

Yes, I am familiar with The Enlightenment thanks.

And I'm glad you make the point that it is the core problems that need to be addressed - climate change and global distribution of resources.

The conclusion that could be inferred from your original statement - that immigration policy should be used to condemn millions to slow death AFTER an avoidable catastrophe because they don't happen to share our beliefs or values, is hardly "enlightened".

I AM THE GOD OF HELL-FIRE!.....but its my lunch break right now

You do realise there's internet access from India?

Polyamory is wrong!
It's either multiamory or polyphilia but mixing greek and latin roots? Wrong!

I agree with almost everything you say PFHF, though I've only quoted two paras.

On the first one, the economic migrants who've come here in recent years have mostly been from places such as Poland, Lithuania, Latvia etc. Apart from specific skill shortages, no other economic migrants have been allowed for a long time. These people are, of course, all white and mostly middle class. Some have gone back, some have settled, and all are welcome as far as I'm concerned. But then I don't believe in borders or nation states at all.

On the second one, I agree, but it goes even deeper than that. Homo Sapiens is a MIGRATORY species. This business of settling on one place, cultivating the land, and saying this bit is "ours" is a very recent development in our evolutionary history. We've been doing it for only about the last 5% of the time we've been around, and and we've yet to work out or cope with the practical and social consequences. We're still essentially a migratory species. I do wish all the emphemeral politicians and demagogues would stop trying to emulate what what King Cnut was reputed to have tried (but probably didn't). Fortunately, they are doomed to fail.

Right. Once more, from the top. a) It was ironic. b) Immigrants coming here get a better deal than in their homelands. c) If "native Brits" emigrated to such a country as India,they would be unlikely to receive the same range of benefits. I am not leaving the land of my birth, but I glory in my personal mixed heritage. OK ?

Practise senseless acts of beauty.