Judicial Punishment 2 (56)

Thanks for your reply. I'm aware you weren't adressing me in particular but did realise when I read your post that I hadn't made clear that I'm neither defending nor condemning any form of punishment either in terms of the punishment itself or how it relates to a particular crime.

I do understand (of course) completely what you're saying but I think it comes down to a much more global problem than completely disproportionate punishments which are obviously ludicrous and some might say barbaric. The fact remains that in that country, at that point in time, that's what the punishment is for that particular crime. People living there know that and whether or not we or they agree with that, it is fact.

And I do think that taking a blatant risk by committing an offence knowing full well what the penalty could be is (albeit not directly) consenting to that punishment upon conviction (Risk Aware Consensual Crime? Consenting to commiting a crime whilst being fully aware of the risk of punishment? As in BDSM we consent to the activity with a full awareness of the possible risks).

Technically, no criminal openly and explicitly consents to any punishment therefore is it unfair of us to lock up murderers for the rest of their natural lives (think Myra Hyndley and Iain Bradey - some people may think it an infringement of their human rights that they were never released. I happen to think it was totally justified and fair) for that reason? I know that rather simplifies the issue of severity of punishment but the whole concept of non-consenuality, I don't think is necessarily tied in with that.

EDIT: I just wanted to add, as an aside, that what would concern me most about the examples you cited is that they are even considered criminal acts to begin with never mind carry a disproportionate penalty (and I suspect without knowing much about it that these are crimes bourne out of religious beliefs - don't even get me started on that one ) but people are aware of the fact it is a crime (whether they or anyone else agrees with it) and as such they are taking a risk by doing it. Personally I don't agree that it should be a criminal offence to view/have extreme pron images but I avoid looking at them because I'm not prepared to take the risk of being sent to prison if I do.

In order to know virtue, we must first aquaint ourselves with vice - Marquis De Sade

Edited 8 Feb 10, 1:24 PM by lima_pink_tigress

On another note, Surely the thing that upset some people on the boards, was not that the man had a caning as punishment for his crimes. but that we then put a link to it on a BDSM site, and some people saw it as something they would like to experience.

How many of us watched something on TV at a young age and it kicked off a kink interest in activities along those lines?

Are we all now saying that to be turned on by the idea of something we have seen, and wondered what it would be like to have that done to us?

*whispers 1984, then hides from the thought police*

++Disclaimer++ I do not advocate judicial caning non-consensually, nor do I really get turned on by the idea, nor did I feel anything apart from *ouch ouch* when seeing the clip.

“If you find it hard to laugh at yourself, I would be happy to do it for you.”

Mistress_Avralivia wrote: I would like to see that clip too, as long as he gave consent for the apron and swatting of course. On another note, Surely the thing that upset some people on the boards, was not that the man had a caning as punishment for his crimes. but that we then put a link to it on a BDSM site, and some people saw it as something they would like to experience. How many of us watched something on TV at a young age and it kicked off a kink interest in activities along those lines? Are we all now saying that to be turned on by the idea of something we have seen, and wondered what it would be like to have that done to us? *whispers 1984, then hides from the thought police* ++Disclaimer++ I do not advocate judicial caning non-consensually, nor do I really get turned on by the idea, nor did I feel anything apart from *ouch ouch* when seeing the clip. Grownup_Frankie wrote: Perhaps when posting clips in future it might be useful, and considerate, for the poster to give a brief description of the content. As I've said on the other thread, I never look on the once bitten twice shy presumption that I might not like what I see but it would be too late then. Now, I might be doing myself out of seeing something I'd like, by being a bit of a whimp. A description would help me. For instance: Man wearing vintage 1950s apron having his penis swatted with a luminous plastic flyswat, whilst crying out 'oo-aaa, oooo-aaaaa, OOOOOO, AAAAAAA!' and alternatively giggling. Now, if I knew the clip was going to be a carry-on like that, I'd probably have a look. Hell, it would probably be me IN the clip.

I think that's another fair point. Some people do have JP tyep fantasies (although god knows why *ouchy* just as some people have rape fantasies, some people have non -consensual sadism fantasies and i'm sure there are others that will be just as unfathomable to many people. That doesn't make their kink any less valid than anyone else's as long as the ones that should stay firmly roted in fantasy land, do so.

In order to know virtue, we must first aquaint ourselves with vice - Marquis De Sade

I think there's a huge dividing line between a legally sanctioned and managed punishment and a consensually negotiated BDSM one.

In BDSM, I may also be subject to my dominant's determination as to how justice should be meted out, but in a healthy, functioning relationship, he will have made that determination based upon the limits he knows my consent is subject to. I may, in fact, consent that he has the right to cane me bloody as a punishment if he deems it appropriate. If I then disobey him, and he does strip the flesh from me with the beating, I have unambiguously consented and I quite likely won't be so disobedient again.

Under the law, however, all people within that jurisdiction are subject to the potential punishment. There is no negotiation, no acceptance and no specific or individual consent. That we are subject to laws is, in my opinion, not the same thing as consenting to them. That's why I'm uncomfortable comparing presumably informed behavior with informed consent.

I'm not trying to change your point of view. I appreciate the opportunity for discussion and spirited debate and I think it's good to be able to talk about the similarities, the differences and as MissP brought up, the fantasies surrounding government sanctioned judicial punishments and BDSM oriented ones.

love the brave but avoid cowards, knowing the gratitude of cowards is small ~Praxilla of Sicyon

Edited 8 Feb 10, 3:40 PM by Thistle

In common-law jurisdictions, which Malaysia is, ignorance of the law is no defense.

I am not saying that I condone that type of punishment, and I did not find it at all a turn-on!

Perhaps he had the choice to either a jail sentence or a juridical caning, but that's just conjecture on my part.

kiti

Nice things come in small packages...but so does poison!

Malasia, I understand, is a constitutional democracy, as such each individual has the right to elect the legislative. In doing so they give consent to them to legislate on their behalf and therefore it must naturally follow that they consent to the rule of law within that jurisdiction. Therefore, there is negotiation and acceptance of the rule of law, in any democracy that exercises universal suffrage.

Nice things come in small packages...but so does poison!

Oh I don't know, many of the people I have spoken to say they would rather go back to prison than their current location. And have spoken really quite fondly of prison saying it is 'well cushy'

Mew

I can't really say where it is, though they far prefer prison which they perceive as less restrictive, and actually like it there. Odd but each to their own

Mew