A newby question – is it essential to push limits? (31)

This post is on the D/s & M/s web board.

Fri 29 Jan 10, 12:37 AM
nilla_in_the_woods
UK(MK), 2 mths
NB: This might be a classic newby question, and maybe on the wrong board, so if I have have missed some pertinent reading please point me to some links, or tell me how to move it to the appropriate board. I'm here to learn.
There is a lot on the boards, but particularly this one I think, about pushing limits. As far as I can see there are soft limits, absolute hard limits that the person is hardwired to – children etc, and hard limits that might become soft limits over time as the person grows. I'm a bit confused as to whether this really makes three types of limits or two. Or are soft limits, in essense, a moving target?
Talking from the D/s end of the spectrum rather than the M/s (which I don't fully 'get' - apologies in advance if I inadvertently insult anyone here ), I assume that pushing hard limits before they become soft is regarded as an abuse of power and trust; something that could cause lasting damage to the recipient (or both parties) and is to be frowned on, or at least be extremely wary of.
However, it seems to be generally accepted that soft limits are there to be pushed. At some moments I sort-of grasp understanding: that to push or ask someone to go somewhere they would not wilfully choose to go alone, is for both parties proof of the submission (graceful or not); a demonstration of the power of One over the other.
But, is such a proof always necessary? Can there be no submission without proof, no acceptance without testing? Or is that the difference between the (B)DS(M) dynamic and normal vanilla kink? Is it just a natural drive for Doms and submissives to want to test themselves and their inter-relationship in this way? If you don't push limits is it a law of diminishing returns? Isn't there a risk that one or even both parties will be pushed beyond what their out-of-scene self can accept, temporarily or permanently? Have there been such cases (where the action was consensual, not just plain hard limit abuse)? For some, at least, there must be fantasies that are too strong or difficult for them in reality. Can people mentally damage themselves in this way?
Sorry for the long post - again! (I seem to be a wordy moo in my online persona.) For myself, I know the strength of dreams and desires, but who I am is precious to me and sometimes precarious; and I am trying to figure out if I belong to, and can safely involve myself in, this community and wiitw(y!)d. Hoping to come to a munch soon, but I can't see myself asking these questions of strangers in rl
[blurt] brain on overload, mouth in overdrive, foot in mouth trying to find the brake... [/blurt]

29 Jan 10, 1:13 AM
Mr_Frost
UK(PL), 15 mths
Always makes me laugh when I read profiles with the statement.
"Limits respected but they will be pushed"
Anotherwords limits not actually respected.
Nobody should want to push your limits before they have learned to play within them first. Once you've played together it might be appropriate to discuss some changes or experimentation but first you have to prove you are capable of trust imo.
Edited 29 Jan 10, 1:14 AM by Mr_Frost

29 Jan 10, 1:51 AM
epona74
UK(SL), 14 mths
Pushing limits can be very healthy and a good way to grow. But it should ONLY EVER be done when you're ready to start pushing them.
It shouldn't ever (imho) be the main focus, and it shouldn't be needed to "prove" ones submission at all. But it CAN be a very powerful interaction once trust and mutual understanding has been established.
It can also go horribly wrong, if done too early or too harshly.
Soft limits are soft for a reason...they're the ones that are kind of uncomfortable, but not complete no-no's. So pushing them can be a good way of growing and developing.
My own take on things, I accept
Two roads diverged in a wood and I, I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. (R. Frost)
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new (A. Einstein)
To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it. ~Confucius

29 Jan 10, 4:33 AM
janglos
UK(GL), 23 mths
Y!
Mr_Frost wrote:
Always makes me laugh when I read profiles with the statement.
"Limits respected but they will be pushed"
Anotherwords limits not actually respected.
Nobody should want to push your limits before they have learned to play within them first. Once you've played together it might be appropriate to discuss some changes or experimentation but first you have to prove you are capable of trust imo.
Agrees with this, I have so many things I am into, why do people always want to start with the things I know for sure I am not into?
You are now breathing manually

29 Jan 10, 7:42 AM
LittleDove
UK(BN), 14 mths
If my Master had told me at the beginning that he intended to eventually strip away nearly all of my hard limits, I would probably have run a mile!
Instead, he began to work me within my 'comfort zone'and slowly, skillfully (almost stealthily) pushed and extended that zone so that I hardly noticed it happening. There was no sudden leap off the edge, out of my comfort zone and straight into my precious limits, it was a gradual process that he took at a pace I could handle so that I NEVER felt panicked and my trust in him only grew, never wavered.
The limits I had were things I'd never done (or had done to me) and I really believed I would never, ever want to do! ... Funny how much your perception of something can change with the right person in charge isn't it?
Now I have only one hard limit (I don't count children and animals as 'limits', those things aren't kinks, they're sick and if someone doesn't take it for granted that I have no interest in such foulness then they're not someone I want anything to do with!) luckily it's a limit we share so I get to keep that one *phew* but all the rest is now His for the taking :o)
Not a shred of evidence exists in favour of the idea that life is serious.

29 Jan 10, 8:59 AM
Belasarius
UK(M), 6 yrs
Y!
I agree entirely with LittleDove, but would add that I think most s's expect their limits to be pushed in this way and that few D's would be satisfied with a dynamic where limits cause stasis.

LittleDove wrote:
If my Master had told me at the beginning that he intended to eventually strip away nearly all of my hard limits, I would probably have run a mile!
Instead, he began to work me within my 'comfort zone'and slowly, skillfully (almost stealthily) pushed and extended that zone so that I hardly noticed it happening. There was no sudden leap off the edge, out of my comfort zone and straight into my precious limits, it was a gradual process that he took at a pace I could handle so that I NEVER felt panicked and my trust in him only grew, never wavered.
The limits I had were things I'd never done (or had done to me) and I really believed I would never, ever want to do! ... Funny how much your perception of something can change with the right person in charge isn't it?
Now I have only one hard limit (I don't count children and animals as 'limits', those things aren't kinks, they're sick and if someone doesn't take it for granted that I have no interest in such foulness then they're not someone I want anything to do with!) luckily it's a limit we share so I get to keep that one *phew* but all the rest is now His for the taking :o)
Patience is bitter - but its fruit is sweet.
Follow me on twitter: @belasarius99

29 Jan 10, 10:06 AM
Teacher1357
UK(LS), 4 mths
Y!
Yes I agree totally with this. Hard limits are the no no's you come into this scene with. Some you will keep forever and some you will, with the right person, who will take you over that border in a way you feel safe and wanting to try. What we do is a journey and impossible to set firm rules as to its navigation. Sometimes this or that road seems inviting and if navigated with care can be very rewarding indeed.

LittleDove wrote:
If my Master had told me at the beginning that he intended to eventually strip away nearly all of my hard limits, I would probably have run a mile!
Instead, he began to work me within my 'comfort zone'and slowly, skillfully (almost stealthily) pushed and extended that zone so that I hardly noticed it happening. There was no sudden leap off the edge, out of my comfort zone and straight into my precious limits, it was a gradual process that he took at a pace I could handle so that I NEVER felt panicked and my trust in him only grew, never wavered.
The limits I had were things I'd never done (or had done to me) and I really believed I would never, ever want to do! ... Funny how much your perception of something can change with the right person in charge isn't it?
Now I have only one hard limit (I don't count children and animals as 'limits', those things aren't kinks, they're sick and if someone doesn't take it for granted that I have no interest in such foulness then they're not someone I want anything to do with!) luckily it's a limit we share so I get to keep that one *phew* but all the rest is now His for the taking :o)

29 Jan 10, 11:52 AM
ToakReon
UK(RH), 10 yrs
Y!

nilla_in_the_woods wrote:
A newby question – is it essential to push limits?

No
Toak
FEMALE, BONDAGE-FRIENDLY MODEL SOUGHT. I am seeking to update my "How To" shibari bondage pictures (see my profile pics, the clothed blonde tied in red and black) with a model more "enthusiastic" about BDSM, and who is happy to be photographed nude. MEMO ME if this is you.

29 Jan 10, 11:57 AM
Belasarius
UK(M), 6 yrs
Y!

ToakReon wrote:

nilla_in_the_woods wrote:
A newby question – is it essential to push limits?

No
Toak
Damn you Toak You are right, of course, but please don't let the newbies think so. They might suddenly realise that it is their right to define things. They all get advised so in due course anyway, can't we keep them in the dark for just a little bit.
Best to you.
Patience is bitter - but its fruit is sweet.
Follow me on twitter: @belasarius99

29 Jan 10, 12:36 PM
Ariane
UK(NR), 6 yrs
Absolutely nothing is absolute.
Never let someone else tell you how to express your kink.

29 Jan 10, 12:40 PM
woewoe
UK(BH), 4 mths

Belasarius wrote:

ToakReon wrote:

nilla_in_the_woods wrote:
A newby question – is it essential to push limits?

No
Toak
Damn you Toak You are right, of course, but please don't let the newbies think so. They might suddenly realise that it is their right to define things. They all get advised so in due course anyway, can't we keep them in the dark for just a little bit.
Best to you.

see also anaiis ic site and die-erdbeerbowle.de (our adventures in the London and UK Fetish party scene)

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