(deleted) (58)

I was sad it meant people who agree with him can now get on board.

I'm on the fence really on that issue. Can't decide.

:-/

De

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The History of those that stopped the NF/BUF does not support your analysis. Both were popular and were defeated by a mixute of direct and non direct action.

You need to resist them in any arena they appear.

Yes they do crave legitimacey, putting them on question time gave them what they wanted.

One does use force alone, only when necessary.

Sadly they do use Brute force and the list below shows this

October 2008 Lockart Kneen Fined £150 and £115 after being found guilty of two counts of racially and religiously aggravated harrassment for affixing anti-Islamic stickers to packages he sent out in the mail. He ran an operation selling BNP magazines on the Internet and sent out packages with stickers that read "no more mosques."

October 2008 Martin Glasgow Chesterfield BNP fundholder Martin Glasgow is jailed for 12 months for a racist assault against an Asian man in June 2006.

October 2008 Anthony Weeks Darlington BNP member Anthony Weeks is given a ten month jail sentence, suspended for two years, and ordered to pay £600 in compensation to his victim and order to do 80 hours community service after admitting racially aggravated assault against an Egyptian customer at his place of work, a local cash and carry. After telling his victim that he was a member of the BNP Weeks then shouted "All you foreigners should not be in my country" before punching him. He was spared jail after his victim spoke up for him. The judge stated that "but for Mr Noaman's intervention, you would have gone immediately to prison."

November 2007 Andrew Kendall BNP supporter Andrew Kendall was given an 18 month conditional discharge and fined £200 for putting up a racially-offensive and threatening poster which showed three black men, the words read "Illegal immigrant murder scum" and contact details for the British National Party.

October 2007 Shaun Jones Welsh BNP supporter Shaun Jones is given a six month community order for threatening polling booth staff on 4 May 2007 with a stick after being told he was not registered to vote. He ignored advice from staff who gave him a phone number to call to register and instead continued shouting and swearing at them until he was arrested. He was also made to pay £150 costs.

June 2007 Robert Bennett Robert Bennett, the convicted gang rapist who oversaw the BNP leafletting campaign in Oldham in 2002, is arrested for his part in a assault on his next door neighbour which began when they ask his son David to leave a BBQ after he began using racist language. David attacked his neighbour after refusing to leave . He returned with his father and the pair subsequently attacked both the male and female neighbour. Robert Bennett who admitted affray was sentenced to 150 hours community service and £250 compensation whilst his son, who also pleaded guilty, was sentenced to 250 hours community service and ordered to pay £500 compensation.

May 2007 Jamie Sedgewick Jamie Sedgewick, a BNP member from Morden is found guilty of screaming racist abuse at an Asian police officer as he was arrested whilst breaking up a fight at the Hideaway Bar, Kingston Road, in March 2006.

March 2007 David Copeland The Appeal Court increases David Copeland's sentence to a minimum of 50 years. The London nail bomber, who had been an active member of the BNP, had originally been sentenced to a minimum term of 30 years for the three bombs he set off in 1999 which killed three people and injured 139 others.

February 2007 John Laidlaw John Laidlaw is sentenced to life after going on a shooting spree in north London in May 2006. He shot Abu Kamara in Upper Street before accidentally shooting Emma Sheridan at Finsbury Park Tube station, as he aimed at a second man. Laidlaw had a string of previous convictions starting at the age of 14. They included property damage, public order offences and 16 counts of theft and possession of knives. He also carried out seven armed street muggings and had been in and out of jail several times. In October 2004 he attacked a black motorist, hurling racist abuse at him. A police report written after Laidlaw was arrested for the attack said he behaved violently in front of officers and was "foaming at the mouth". "In the presence and hearing of the black female gaoler the defendant made racist comments and remarks, stating he was a member of the BNP and that he hated all black people," the document says. He also said he was going to "kill all black people". He was convicted of racially aggravated actual bodily harm and using racist languageRobert Cottage, a BNP member and former council election candidate, pleads guilty to possessing explosives.

January 2007 Mark Bulman Mark Bulman was jailed for five years for setting fire to Swindon's Broad Street mosque. He used a BNP leaflet as a fuse for his petrol bomb.

September 2006 Robert McGlynn Robert McGlynn, a Swansea BNP activist, is fined £200 plus £200 costs for shouting racist abuse at an Asian woman. He was convicted on evidence from a passer-by. He later loses his appeal against conviction and is ordered to pay a further £140 in costs.

July 2006 Allen Boyce The former National Front Remembrance Day parade bugler Allen Boyce, 73, now a BNP supporter, receives a two-year suspended sentence for giving bomb-making instructions to Terry Collins, a BNP member, who was sentenced to five years in 2005 for conducting a racist hate campaign against the Asian community in Eastbourne

May 2006 Kevin Hughes Kevin Hughes, who acted as election agent for the BNP Redditch councillor David Enderby in May 2006, is sentenced to 30 months in prison for assaulting an Iraqi asylum seeker. The sentence is later reduced to two years on appeal.

March 2006 Luke Smith A former BNP Burnley councillor Luke Smith is imprisoned for 11 months for violent disorder, and a further six months for other violent offences. He is also banned from football matches for six years.

April 2005 John Cope John Cope, a Cheshunt BNP member and election candidate, is fined £750 and ordered to pay £104 costs for harassing an anti-racist campaigner.

March 2005 Terry Collins Terry Collins, a BNP member, is sentenced to five years in prison for a year-long campaign of terror against Asian families in Eastbourne. He claims the BNP "brainwashed" him. Collins, a former Territorial Army soldier, admitted charges of arson, racially aggravated harassment and criminal damage. He also admitted the possession of bullets found in his home and asked for 11 further offences of racially aggravated criminal damage to be taken into account.

Not to forget Tony Lecomber and Richard Edmonds!

Lecomber was convicted for criminal damage in 1982, offences under the Explosives Act in 1985, and was sentenced to three years' imprisonment in 1991 for an attack on a Jewish teacher.

In 1985, he was injured by a firework that he was carrying to the offices of the Workers Revolutionary Party. Police found 10 grenades, seven petrol bombs and two detonators at his home.Nice guy eh?

Edmonds has amassed a number of criminal convictions. In 1988, The Sunday Times revealed that Holocaust News, a publication that claimed The Holocaust was an "evil hoax", was being published by Edmonds, on behalf of a BNP front organisation, the Centre for Historical Review, and distributed by members. The theme was returned to on 8 April 1991 edition of Panorama where Edmonds described the publication as 'a wonderful statement of the truth'

Edmonds also spent time in custody over a racial attack in 1993and had previously been convicted for smashing a statue of Nelson Mandela on London's South Bank. Further controversy came in 1993 when he told The Guardian's Duncan Campbell that 'we [the BNP] are 100% racist'.

Your view that they are currently in a non violent phase really doesnt stand up to scrutiny.

These attacks are only the ones where BNP members were convicted!

By all means have a chat, but dont be surprised when they attack you and put your name and address on the internet to encourage others too!

Their is no histrorical precident for you approch working with british fascists.

Edited 29 Oct 09, 11:41 AM by nortyboy

Firstly, I didn't precisely say they were none violent (I don't believe I even implied this: sorry if I gave you that impression). Only that they seek to present themselves as legitmate. I'm quite sorry you seem to think that equates with the BNP as being pacifist. Sein fen sought to present themselves as a legitmate politcal organisation. That doesn't mean they were not violent, they were and probably still are, linked to organisations that were dedicated to achieving those aims through violence.

You forgot to mention that Griffin considers himself and members of combat 18 to be on the same side. One wonders how many members of the BNP are also members of combat 18.

Interesting question for you. Did the BUF or NF ever manage to obtain representation within our political system? I'm sure the BNP leaders appreciate the folly of using violent means on its own. Is this unprecedented? If so, should we expect tactics used to confront the BUF and NF to be sucessful when dealing with the BNP?

Secondly, it would seem that the above information is not common knowledge, despite being in the public domain. Consider this: if it were do you really think they would have gained even a protest vote? Or seats in the european paliament? Or seats in any of britians councils?

Do you think that the BNP is going to put that kind of information up on their website? If not, then how will some of those visiting it going to be able to use this information to make an informed choice?

You may argue that the BNP should not be regarded as a legitimate politcal organisation. I would say that it's a little late: a fact I'm sure everyone on this site regards with distaste and disgust.

The above could be used as a perfectly rational argument for voters not to support them. If it's not made within the arena of debate, then the BNP will continue to hide behind their PR manufactured facade. It does not need to be made in direct debate necessarily: but failing to confront them through reasoned argument in the politcal arena when that opportunity presents itself, because you don't want to legitimise them, is to fail to challenge them in the one place that will count with the people who could give them genuine politcal power (the electorate).

Challenge the BNP with only force and you shall not prevent them from gaining political influence. Challenge them with force in the arena of debate and will make them look far more respectable than they deserve. To use force may well be the first instinct and quite justifiable: on its own, it will achieve little (Why else did Sein Fen come into existence?).

Consider some of the examples you have given above and the way the BNP present themselves. Do you really think they want genuine debate? To be put up to the kind of scrutiny legitmate parties are subject to? It would destroy much of the gains they've already made and that veneer of political respectability would quickly vanish.

Edited 29 Oct 09, 5:38 PM by the_ex

The BNP much like the NF and BUF have always used violence whilst presenting as ligitimate. After all griffin has been in both the NF and BNP. He is also an admirer of the the BUF.In his own words,

On Sir Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Union of Fascists: "'There is a strong, direct link from Oswald Mosley to me."

Since the Leaders of all 3 parties were fans of Hitler and read his book its fair to say their parties were modelled on the original in terms of Ideology and tactics.

They have never relied on violence alone. Neither did the Nazis. However all 4 parties have used street marches ,racist attacks and other methods including the ballot box to futher their cause.

In terms of popularity the Nazis situation is clear.Hitler stated that if they lost the street battles they could have been stopped.

With regards to the BUF, In the London County Council elections in 1937 the BUF stood in three of its East London strongholds, polling up to a quarter of the vote. However, the BUF never faced a General Election. Having lost the funding of newspaper magnate, Lord Rothermere, that it previously enjoyed, at the 1935 General Election the party urged voters to abstain, offering "Fascism Next Time".There never was a "next time", as the next General Election was not held until July 1945, by which time World War II in Europe had ended and fascism had been discredited. Towards the middle of the 1930s, the BUF's violent activities and its perceived alignment with the German Nazi Party began to alienate some middle-class supporters and membership decreased. At the Olympia rally in London, in 1934, BUF stewards were in a violent confrontation with anti-fascist activists, in which one of the Anti-facist protesters lost an eye, and this caused the Daily Mail to withdraw support So clearly a combination of anti fascist activity including direct confrontation stopped the BUF.

In terms of the NF their electon results ,they were growing in strength.

The NF candidate in the West Bromwich Parliamentary by-election, Martin Webster, gained almost 5,000 votes, 16% of the poll.In 1974 there were two General Elections: at the first one in February, the NF fielded 54 candidates who received a total of 75,000 votes. By October, the party was able to increase this to 90 candidates and they attracted 113,000 votes.During 1976 the movement's fortunes rapidly improved.

The May 1976 local election results were impressive with the jewel in the crown being Leicester, where 48 candidates won 43,733 votes, nearly 20% of the total vote. By June the Party's growth rate was its highest ever. This was emphasised in May 1977 when some outstanding local election results were achieved: in particular 119,000 votes were cast in favour of the NF in London and the Liberals were beaten in 33 out of 92 constituencies.

It is clear the NF were growing on the streets and in the ballot box.On 13th August 1977 a major NF march through Lewisham in South London was organised it was resisted by the ANL and the local community. Webster ended up hiding in a car park addressing his troops.

The ANL and RAR organised on several levels to stop the NF. Even Webster said" huge Anti-Nazi League rallies and media hyping of the 'Holocaust' series on television in the week running up to the election, with the media ever eager to employ the "nazi" smear, led to disappointing results in the 1979 General Election."

Once again my point is borne out.

Finally it is clear that i have repeatdly said you do not use violence alone.Why you assume i do when i have said the opposite is beyond me! However it is quite clear that they are not a legally constituded party,they do not allow Black Britions into their membership. They are clearly a nazi party with links to terrorist groups and use force as and when they need to.

They have no commitment to the electoral process. As Griffin told the Cook Report

"The people who have the brains and ability got out [of London] years ago, one way or another. The people who are left are either the 15 per cent of the population who are happy to put up with it, they're so decadent they actually like it, or they are too stupid to do anything about it. They will vote BNP, but you can't build a movement on those people."

On democracy: “[BNP voters backed] what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate.”

You cannot have a debate with people whose ultimate aim is to kill you.

The difference between our approches is mine is based on experiance, organisation and history. Yours seems to be unstructured and disorganised to say the least. This is illustrated by your comments in this thread being supportive of Griffin being on Question Time to be scrutinised whilst on another thread relating to the BNP on this site you say of the programme.

"Saw an interesting thing in the paper the other day about how the audience were encouraged by the BBC to goad and bait Griffin. I wouldn't say the audience were ignorant: used would be a better description."

So much for saying its good to let the BNP go on TV to be taken apart then?

You seem a little confused to say the least.

Edited 29 Oct 09, 7:52 PM by nortyboy

Then it would seem that history is destined to repeat itself with regards the BNP, as it has twice already.

1) Fascist organisation gains ground.

2) Under oppossition, Fascist organisation is sucesfully attacked and driven underground.... (hooray!)

3) While underground, fascist organisation rebrands itself. Go back to step one (oh bollox).

Protest and media collusion is not the same as debate. I would suggest that the tactic of confrontation described does not defeat fascism, precisely because it does not challenge the ideaology itself, only the people espousing it. It merely holds it off, preventing those organisations from enduring in the mainstream, driving them under until they come back under a new guise. It doesn't change attitudes, it merely entrenches them. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's self defeating: It achives its limited aim. It does seem myopic: like using medicine that represses the symptoms rather than dealing with the root cause.

I may believe that the majority of people mantain prejudices, I don't believe they were born with them and experience also suggests that people are capable of changing their minds.

Does the ANL and other anti fascist organisations seek to permanently change attitudes in order to promote a racially tolerant society where the BNP and their ilk could never gain significant support. Or do they knee jerk react: seeking only to confront fascists when they appear to gain popularity? Does such a strategy make it more difficult to promote tolerance because of the polarisation it creates? Does it create the impression that they are extremists as well? Thus making it more difficult to prevent the re-emrgence of fascism?

None of the posts I'm making are a personal attack on you, please believe this, nor do I regard your posts as such (there is a logic behind it: perhaps not one you're used to but that's ok I can see why you'd think them unstructured and disorganised so I'm chill).

I agree that confrontation is necessary, and on all fronts and this should include debate. If it doesn't include debate (the one aspect not yet tried as far as I can see from your informative posts), then surely histroy is doomed to forever repeat itself? It strikes me that debate is the one thing the BNP would fear more than anything else, otherwise why resort to violence to prevent it.

I have no problem with your view of using debate as one method of dealing with them amongst many.

I dont think you can blame anti fascists for fascism. The real root of there growth is linked to the economy.Clearly Hitler, Tyndall and Griffin grow in recessions using cheap populist and racist ideology. Yes groups like the ANL work on single issues like stopping the NF. They cannot and are not designed to overthrow the current economic system.

My main difference with you is i dont view them as a party that should be given a legitamacey they dont deserve. Nazis dont belong on Question Time.

In terms of the debate, ive enjoyed this cordial discussion with you and hope you dont feel attacked. Its a debate worth having and i respect the way you have put your ideas forward.

Its also allowed me to slap Nicky a few more times!

Edited 29 Oct 09, 8:23 PM by nortyboy

Great answer - I agree there. Force is a regrettable last resort. Even enjoying representations of violence against a notorious evildoer is perhaps in bad taste and bad for society. So I'm persuaded - it probably wasn't very healthy of me to "slap Griffin" on that site ... although I probably wouldn't rate it as the worst of my many faults and failings and limitations, and certainly not worse than his faults.

Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est. http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/226772/