BDSM Activism (96)

I also think it's worth remembering that this forum isn't an Activist organisation. Of course, it contains posts where people discuss activism, lobbying, politics, news and so on, but there is no need for any kind of consensus, unified front, or One True Way when it comes to how people do things. It's a good thing to say "I think it would be more effective if people do it this way" - but all too often, that becomes "The only way to protest in My Way" or even "Some things shouldn't be protested against at all"

There are evidently plenty of people here who think the extreme porn law shouldn't be criticised or protested, but clearly, that's not going to change the minds of those of us who think it should have been. There's never going to be a consensus on it - and there's also never going to be a style of activism that will please those people (because the only thing they want is no activism on it at all). I don't see why people who aren't interested in activism on a particular topic can't just ignore it (there are plenty of activism things I'm not interested in, after all, but I don't tell people not to). OOI, to anyone who does believe the extreme porn law shouldn't have been protested, are there other "BDSM Activism" issues that you are interested in supporting? Is it that you would rather people direct there efforts into these other things?

But then, I also seem some who seem to mock the idea of BDSM Activism altogether. There's no change that could be made to please them. Unfortunately I think that sometimes the activism-bashing gets thrown into threads, and it's hard to distinguish between genuine criticism, and those who seem to disagree with all BDSM activism altogether.

And surely an obvious measure is that if it's allowed to discuss the topic anywhere else on the forum (i.e., people discussing themselves doing it for pleasure), then it should be okay for Activism? Again, presumably it's Admin's call as to what shouldn't be allowed on these forums.

Sign the Consenting Adult Action Network's statement

Edited 1 Oct 09, 3:22 AM by emark

I think that too much time is spent swapping links of paedophiles that have been charged with the new law.

I think that anyone looking in would wonder why there seems to be so much sympathy for paedophiles being charged with the new law. - Thats fine for me to think too.

What population did you sample? What statistical method did you use to come up with that conclusion?

IME activism in any domain is always like this. There are scare stories but equally there is complacency/conformity - and on all sides of the argument there are people who have made their mind up and couldn't follow a train of evidence or logic even if they were watching CSI.

It's almost the definition of effective activism to be a bit presumptive and a little paranoid, which is what distinguishes it from non activism. If a 'scare story' proves to be false then no harm is done beside some heated posting, but if it turns out to be true then that's when activism has the chance to be truly effective.

- Chris

Vivez sans temps mort

Edited 1 Oct 09, 10:00 AM by Backdooruk

Hiya

Thanks for this

On rereading my post (done after a few pints of lager) it does look as though I was aiming at you. Not my intention at all and, if you felt that, sorry

I am with you on this one and I do think this is an area of difficulty. If people on IC are picking up/feeling that swathes of the population are anti BDSM and find what they do disgusting then somehow I am not sure the right message is getting across. And, before I get jumped on, this is not a go at the messengers or those receiving the message.

Perhaps I, too, am being naive but I have seen very little hard evidence of this. I do get that people in certain professions have real problems with their sexuality not being acceptable but I think this a fair step away from the proposition that a majority of the population find what we do abhorrent

I would be, honestly, interested if anyone can provide real evidence that this is the feeling across the nation

I'd just like to point out that there is a difference between 'swathe of the population' and 'the majority of the population' and that difference it in the nature of the idea of a backlash.

I'd agree that there has been increasing tolerance towards BDSM throughout the past 20 years, but it's precisely that tolerance that the creates a backlash effect. It's really human nature that when people who are dislike something or find it abhorrent see more people who don't then they become more vocal in their abhorrence. The consequence of their vocalism and activism is likely to exceed the passive tolerance of the general population, so it doesn't require a majority but only a significant minority to profligate discrimination, prejudice and even violence (see evidential examples on the revise 65 website).

- Chris

Vivez sans temps mort

I was just trying to find an alternative words for majority. Definition I found of "swathe" was a large number of people - maybe it's fair to say a large number of the UK population is a majority

Anyway - that's pedantic city and I hope most readers got my drift

Thanks for the heads up on Revise 65 but there wasn't much there to change my general take

I agree with much of what else you wrote. My sense is that the significant minority are more likely (in BDSMs case) to be influential in individual and local issues (say a teacher or a social worker). Obviously, there was the Coutts case which is different and I do recognise that there is the possibility of another one of those appearing.

So, my proposition is, that the (vast?) majority (not swathe ) of the population do not really care one way of another about BDSM and BDSMers unless there is some direct effect on their lives. Even then, they may well be tolerant of it

Is anyone against that proposition? And, if so, why?

Unfortunately it only takes a smallish group of powerful and dedicated bigots to ensure that this countries rules and regulations don't fall in line with that belief. What it does mean is that, it's a fight worth fighting, because it probably has public support.

I agree that as Peter Tatchell once advised CAAN: the main downfall so far of BDSM campaigns is that they have not got their message out to the public, who may well be on side and support in pressing for change. This is why CAAN makes an effort to keep it's name out there and we take/make as many opportunity for interviews, etc, as we can.

De

Sign up to CAAN's statement www.caan.org.uk
Spanner Trust SM campaign - can you join in? http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/239250/0
Get up, stand up - Bob Marley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zTxUxFjLB0

Edited 1 Oct 09, 1:42 PM by Degenerate

Take a look at our site: we are about the rights of consenting adults being able to interact freely with other consenting adults in private. That means that bdsm comes into the equation – sometimes quite widely – but is far from the only issue.

We also take an interest in legislation and social prejudice against sex workers. In issues around trans sexuality. In polyamory and bias that society displays there. etc

Oh – and since the government seems determined to water down legislation protecting the LGBT community from discrimination, that, too, is on our radar.

We are involved in a long-running debate with the EHRC as to what constitutes discrimination – and how sexuality interacts with Human Rights. And that's just for starters.

So any idea that we “represent” the bdsm community or should somehow be answerable to it (or more pertinently the members of one forum) is mis-guided. We post here because some of our more outspoken bdsm members happen also to be on here. That said, you won't find those involved in the sex work end of things posting here because…well, they have other forums in which they interact.

Most of what we do is not decided in internet forums (its just that if your particular focus is an internet forum, then you will tend to notice us on here far more); it takes place on the phone or face to face.

Only in the bdsm world, where many proudly claim not to be discriminated against, is the fear of outing so prevalent that next to no-one will pick up the phone to talk to us.

We also talk to people outside the internet world: journalists (we have a pretty good idea now who to trust, who is a total prat), politicians (we number about four Lords amongst our backers, and do speak regularly to a number of MP's); pressure groups, academics. And Peter Tatchell!

Is it possible that there is a trend here? We like to interact everywhere and if all that people can offer is virtual interaction, that is fine too – but it can be a limiting way to be involved.

As to how to get involved…well, its as simple as dropping us a line to info@caan.org.uk. We deliberately don't have masses of detailed policy at this stage. So long as you can sign up to the statement of principle (and mean it and stick to it) you are in.

Some people use us for back-up and resource, then politely go off and run their own campaigns. Others get more involved. We never turn away offers of genuine help – though we are limited in what is possible where someone's main contribution is to share ideas, with no ability to help implement them. (ideas we have in abundance already...solid dependable help we can never have enough of).

If you have a bee under your bonnet about some issue local to you and it fits the statement of principle, tell us and we'll facilitate if we can.

If you want to help us, that would be brilliant: no serious offers ever turned away.(though offers of particular skills sometimes get squirreled away until they are needed).

A very good example of how this works is Scotland (you know who you are!). From an initial contact, where we gave some advice and support material, our contact up there has gone on to run a very effective campaign on the Scottish extreme porn law, linking up with real world pressure groups, MSP's and the Scottish Civil Service.

We still talk to that person...still occassionally give a nudge on focus (ie the CAAN statement)if its being done under the CAAN banner, and they have done a fantastic job of getting off their arse and doing what needs to be done...with very little help.

The only other thing that happens is we update people on the Scottish situation regularly in the newsletter. The newsletter as a rule, lets people know whats going on, how people can join in existing campaigns and asks for specific help when we need it.

So the upshot is that CAAN is still a loosely connected network of people...all doing their own things in their own way.

The common points most people will deal with are De who happens to be National Convenor (a focus point) and spokesperson (mostly becuase no-one else has come forward yet who can do the job so well) and me (redcat) who does the admin....that means funnelling stuff that comes in to a central point out to the people and places its relevent to. Its all about facilitating as opposed to organising.

But please...the way to get involved is to..erm...get involved.

We (many of us involved with CAAN to some degree or other) may debate with you on here (we happen to be members...we also happen to be activists...so it kind of makes sense).... but CAAN operates in the main well away from ic.

ETA - See our blog "How to get involved in CAAN" here: http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/248965/

Sign up to our statement of principles for the freedom of consenting adults to express themselves! http://www.caan.org.uk/sign.php
Please see our new website: http://www.caan.org.uk/

Edited 1 Oct 09, 2:30 PM by C_A_A_N

Only a couple of people have said this to me so I opened the thread for more opinions.

I agree with most of what you say but false scare stories can be redused and they do risk being spun into crying wolf.