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| 30 Aug 09, 6:08 PM furry_catgirl UK(CT), 3 yrs  |
ok, boot wearing feminist alert. I think it is fine, as it is the concept of playing with concepts, rather than actually engaging in them.... get that..? it is just a show, a bit of fun that groups of people can work and play at.. what is really demeaning is judging women ONLY on appearance.. rather like BDSM, you play with human feelings, rather than actually engage in them.. i.e., a REAL sadist properly tortures people... by playing with feelings/emotions, we gently remove them from the real world... i.e. inequality toward women...
love is everything | ||
| 30 Aug 09, 6:36 PM Protocol 4 yrs |
Does it have to be either? No-one ever asks if being in a band is empowering or demeaning to stoner boys with bad hair. | ||
| 30 Aug 09, 6:58 PM Aumentou UK(S), 2 yrs  |
I know a few dancers. They don't make any money from it, really - it's just pocket money and most of them spend it on costume anyway. So they're not doing it for the money, which means they're not being oppressed in that way. They seem to do it because they enjoy it. They like being the centre of attention, they like feeling sexy, they like the pretty clothes. All of which makes sense to me and doesn't seem demeaning to women. In fact, I'd be doing it too if I could do it remotely well. | ||
| 30 Aug 09, 7:04 PM Ishmael UK(SE), 12 yrs |
To turn the question around, 'Does Feminism empower women, or does it merely empower Feminists?' Admittedly the most contact that I had with the Feminist movement was in Nottingham in the 1980s, and in those days it was in the rules that Feminists had to wear big clumpy boots and boiler suits and big jumpers, so that men wouldn't fancy them - sex with men was utterly wrong - if anyone had compared thse sartorial rules with those of most montheist religions, there would have been big trouble, but it wasn't an unreasonable likeness. I think the last time that I saw Barbara, she was talking about buying some pretty underwear to excite the bloke she was intending to marry, and she said 'It is OK to wear it if you love somebody, isn't it?' Andrea Dworkin would have had her shot. While Feminism was empowering all over the place, it was also depriving women like Barbara from exercising their right to express their sexuality, and the trouble is that women wanting sex with men isn't wrong - it creates children for a start - and while the whole Lysistrata-esque stance of 'No sex until we get proper rights' thing was very laudable in principle (and it's amazing how fast men capitulate when the supply of sex shuts off), it took a lot of enforcing, because even quite a lot of the women that declared themselves Lesbian Seperatists did actually still fancy some men really, even thought they never dared mention it. The two most empowered women in the hippy community that I was a part of were Sally, the chief Feminist, and girlfriend of the local cannabis dealer, who therefore had all the wimmin under her control *and* all the men (through her own man - very clever), and Sharon, who was a natural courtesan, and didn't give a fig for Feminism, because being beautiful, she knew she was perfectly empowered. Night of the Cane, (probably) the best corporal punishment party in the world, takes place on Saturday 21st Novemeber. | ||
| 30 Aug 09, 7:20 PM LovingLord 3 yrs |
I've always thought that judging anyone based only on appearance, gender, race or whatever said much more about the one doing the judging than the one being judged. I would say that you should focus on ignoring people who are that shortsighted and, well, stupid - and try to surround yourself with the kind of people who will support you. At least, that's what I try to do...
I'm not sure that I agree that BDSM has to be "playing" with emotions rather than engaging them. During a session, reality is suspended, sure - but underneath that is (or, in my opinion, should be at least) a layer of trust, devotion, and hopefully love that permiates everything that happens. I do hope that I've never played with anyones feelings or emotions. I don't think I have, and I certainly havn't done it deliberately if I have. As for inequality toward women, well - it's wrong, it's despicable, everyone seems to agree it shouldn't be, but it is. Then again, no two people are equal, so "inequality" always bugged me. Should a woman be given equal pay/respect for doing the same job as a man? Hell yes. Is she his equal? In broad terms, yes. But in many ways, she is not his equal - no-one is equal to another, regardless of gender. I am greater than the person next to me in some ways, inferior in others. So I do think it's right to treat women a *little* differently to men. That's why I will hold the door open for a woman, allow her to be a bit bitchy to me once a month without being a bastard back, and carry heavy items for her. And I've been called sexist for doing so. Not making that last bit up either, unfortunately. | ||
| 30 Aug 09, 7:35 PM Sinister_Duck UK(NG), 3 yrs |
No, feminists who presume to judge other women doing what they choose to do are letting the side down.
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| 31 Aug 09, 7:45 AM Bad_dog_no_biscuit UK(S), 5 yrs |
Wait, so if I'm a feminist I can't judge what any other woman might choose to do? No matter how desperate for money, drug-addicted, self-destructive, self-hating, self-objectifying, abused or generally crazy she is, because it's something she's chosen to do, that makes it all right? For example, if she chooses to starve herself to death because she thinks she is fat and ugly and no man will find her attractive because she's fat and ugly, that's fine? Not a feminist issue at all? I can still criticise men though, obviously. I think I know what you were trying to say, and if so I agree, I'm as glad as anyone that the embarrassing days of 'you may not call yourself a feminist if you have sex with men or try to look feminine or try to look masculine' are long gone (though not in the mind of anti-feminists, sadly), but the way you have put it sounds more like out and out sexism than my idea of feminism. Sorry. Back on topic: I don't think burlesque is either always empowering or always demeaning. The same goes for prostitution, being in porn films, modelling and stripping. I do think women involved in burlesque are much more likely to be empowered by it than not, unlike prostitution, being in porn films, modelling or stripping. From what I've seen of it, it seems like a genuine celebration of female sexuality and of women's bodies in their diverse forms, not just an impossible standard. Artistry, confidence and sensuality are acclaimed. I'm sure there is burlesque out there somewhere which is the opposite of this but I do not think it is in any way common. I like you. I'll kill you slowly. | ||
| 31 Aug 09, 9:33 AM sardax UK, 6 yrs |
I'm not sure I understand the idea of "empowerment" which seems talked about so often. Aren't beautiful women naturally empowered by the simple fact that they can turn men to jelly anyhow. Does "empowerment" mean giving that power to other women, who are not so blessed with good looks?
In which case, burlesque is only going to work if the men want to watch anyway-i.e the already "empowered" ones? So "empowerment " is not really a helpful phrase. If Burlesque helps some women to become more confident with their own bodies, all well and good-that is a different matter. I prefer it myself for the simple fact that it still values "tease". Stripclubs seemed to ditch tease back in the swinging sixties when they just let the girls quickly take off a bra and pants and be done with it. Thank heavens burlesque seeks to revive that element, understanding the eroticism of gradual unveiling and the beauty of costuming. | ||
| 31 Aug 09, 9:47 AM Degenerate  UK(M), 5 yrs   |
I think it's great if people choose to do it, if they chose then it's simply their choice - it's just a kind of performance and lots of people like it - a person could in theory be empowered or not doing it - kind of doesn't matter as long as it's their own real choice,lots of people are disempowered by their jobs every day! Burlesque IS a kind of stripping and I get sick of of the snobbish responses of some burlesque people who spend a lot of time insisting 'it's different' 'it's art' when I feel they could have some solidarity with others who do similar performance. The problem in Camden is the council's ridiculous attitude towards anything remotely adult. The burlesque lobby played into their prejudice instead of challenging why Camden give adult entertainment such a bad time - and in so doing imply that it's fine for camden to mistreat other adult performers. Poor show in my opinion. De ETA - I know not all burlesque people or fans think this way. but those that do say it a lot! Sign up to CAAN's statement www.caan.org.uk Edited 31 Aug 09, 12:06 PM by Degenerate | ||
| 31 Aug 09, 1:08 PM ladyjayne 8 yrs |
Oddly enough, most women involved in prostitution / porn / modelling or stripping (in the UK at least) are there by choice, it is something they love and something they want to do... In Manchester I could introduce you to going on for a hundred people who work in 'massage parlours' or strip-clubs all of them educated intelligent women (I have met several doctors, lawyers, teachers etc) who love what they do. If a woman makes a choice to do something (and I hardly see an addiction such as drugs or a mental illness such Anorexia a choice, I don't also see those issues as JUST feminist issues) then who has the right in the feminist movement to say that what she is doing is wrong or demeaning? Feminism should be fighting for equality for women, does that mean we have to become like men to be equal? Or, does it mean that I get to choose how I want to live my life, regardless if that is as a submissive 1950's style housewife or a family Matriarch... "that artwork is rather dark" "well yes, I wasn't exactly expecting winnie the pooh!" |
