Swords & knives etc... (17)

"Quit? Once I was thinking about quitting when I was diagnosed with brain, lung and testicular cancer, all at the same time. But with the love and support of my friends and family, I got back on the bike and I won the Tour de France five times in a row. But I'm sure you have a good reason to quit" L.Armstrong

I know the law recently changed for sellers but when I just checked one of my favourite online uk weapons stores to find the details I find it's no longer there.

- Chris

This is my voice, my weapon of choice

Sorry to hear that.

Is it still possible to buy and sell swords etc as ornamental items?

"Quit? Once I was thinking about quitting when I was diagnosed with brain, lung and testicular cancer, all at the same time. But with the love and support of my friends and family, I got back on the bike and I won the Tour de France five times in a row. But I'm sure you have a good reason to quit" L.Armstrong

I own a number of swords two made especially for me but all are exempt.

Can you be more specific, it would help with answers as its a wide area

Jess

Edited to reply to post

Yes ornamental ones are allowed but again its a complicated answer. The legislation is manly interested in cheap reproductions people then used to stab people.

The good suppliers are usually up on what they can can not do.

Try to think of my dyslexia as a challenge when reading my posts.

Edited 10 Jul 09, 5:23 PM by JessDay

Which is the stupidity of it really: Anyone can go into B&Q, buy a length of metal and a grinder and within half an hour they'd have something perfectly adequate for assault or gang related activities at least to the extent of cheap reproductions.

- Chris

This is my voice, my weapon of choice

For most knives, the only regulation regarding sales is that it is illegal to sell them to under 18s.

You can sell a knife to an under 18 if it is "a folding pocket knife with a cutting edge not greater than 3 inches in length." Originally this meant... well, just what it says. However, there was a court ruling a number of years ago that ruled that a knife that has a safety lock that prevents the knife from closing on your fingers is not a folding pocket knife. This means that you can only sell non-locking folders (with a 3 inch or less blade) to under 18s. An example of a non-locking knife is the traditional Swiss Army Knife where the blade can be closed just by pushing on the back of the blade. However, new models of Swiss Army Knives now have safety locks on them.

Incidentally, this is the criteria for legal carry of a knife without good reason. If a knife meets the criteria above (non-locking, 3" blade or less) you can carry it in public without any kind of reason. If a knife does not meet this criteria (longer blade, lock, fixed blade etc) then you can only carry it in public with good reason e.g. hunting, camping, bushcraft, electrician work etc.

Some knives are illegal to sell, import, manufacture, lend, hire out, give, offer for sale or offer for hire. These knives are not illegal to possess at home or to buy, but they are illegal to sell and import. So the situation is a bit like that with cigarettes and under 18s - it's the seller who breaks the law, not the buyer.

These knives are:

Automatic knives (also called switchblades and 'flick knives', though that's something of a misnomer) - a knife where the blade shoots out of the handle automatically when a button is pushed

Balisongs (also called butterfly knives) - a knife where the blade is concealed inside two handles that split down the middle and rotate around to reveal the blade

Push daggers - a knife where the handle is held in a closed fist and the blade protrudes from between two fingers

Gravity knife - a knife where the blade 'falls' out of the handle and locks in the open position when a button is pressed, by force of gravity

Belt buckle knife - a knife that is incorporated into a belt buckle

Concealed knife - a knife that is designed to appear to be something other than a knife such as a pen or lip stick

Also, the same law applies to knuckle dusters. If a knife incorporates a knuckle duster then it comes under the law as a knuckle duster.

So: You can legally buy and own anything you like. You can legally import and make anything unless it falls into the above list. You can legally sell anything unless it falls into the list above or you are selling it to an under 18. You can only sell knives to under 18s if they meet the criteria at the top of my post. You can only carry a knife in public if it either meets the criteria at the top, or if you have a good reason.

Swords

Swords (since they are not folding pocket knives) are illegal to carry in public without good reason.

Funnily enough, there does not seem to be any restriction on selling swords to under 18s so you may not sell a small knife to an under 18, but you may sell a sword to one.

There are restrictions on two kinds of sword, for which (as above with knives) it is illegal to sell, manufacture, import, lend, give, hire out, offer for sale or offer for hire, but not to own or buy:

Sword canes - a sword where the blade is concealed inside a cane

'Samurai swords' - The prohibition is on curved swords with blades measuring greater than 50cm in length. However, there is an exemption for: swords made in Japan before the 1950s and swords made 'according to traditional methods' at any other time. In practice this means Samurai swords which are designed to be used are not restricted; that is swords with a forged blade of carbon steel. Stainless steel 'display' type swords (which are curved with blades over 50cm) do fall foul of the law. This does not only apply to 'samurai' type swords, but to all curved swords with blades 50cm or more e.g. cavalry sabers, cutlasses etc.

So again:

You can buy and own anything you like. You can import, make or sell anything so long as it is not a sword cane and not a stainless steel curved sword with a blade over 50cm (carbon steel blades are fine). You can not carry a sword without good reason.

This is the law in England and Wales, it may differ in Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands.

If you tell me what you want the knives/swords for, what your budget is and when you want them by (e.g. do you want them tomorrow or can you wait 10 days or so for them to arrive, as this will affect price and what is available) I'd be happy to recommend you something. There are a lot of shitty blades out there and unless you know what to look for and what brands are good you'll likely end up with a wobbly letter opener. Luckily, there are also some fantastic blades and some real bargains too.

What men in all the world have shown such daring?

Edited 10 Jul 09, 3:46 PM by DaddysTouch

Under certain circumstances a defence may be raised.

Note the term of this act even applies to an Iaito (practise blade) which is not sharp, or even as some are made of alloy, able to take an edge.

This is usually accepted as the purchaser proving membership of a bone fida Dojo and possessing relevant liability insurance and records being kept of this by the seller.

A good read for understanding this and your obligations if you ever try to sell it on for example is contained the terms and conditions that 9 circles (a very bona fide purveyor of Budo equipment) require for selling Iaito.

Paragraph 7

http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/toc.asp

Oddly as stated you can purchase a "live" blade without the above, however these are usually £400 plus.

Carry rules as pointed out is a separate kettle of Badgers.

- Wulfie

My, what sharp teeth I have.

Edited 14 Jul 09, 2:02 AM by BadWulf

As above, this is no longer the full story. The law was amended to exempt swords made according to traditional methods which in practice means forged carbon steel blades. These are unrestricted.

Technically, the martial arts licensing thing still applies to stainless steel swords but these are not suitable for actual use so I can't imagine this being used much lol, you can just buy a carbon steel sword from anywhere without the need for a martial arts license.

You can buy a legal Samurai type sword for £50, probably less. However, even though these are forged carbon steel, they won't be any good for use. You can get a very solid sword of 9260 spring steel for £190 which is suitable for iaido and test cutting. I'm selling one actually if anyone is interested lol (brand new, unusued, in case with saya, ray skin, cord wrapped handle < pimp pimp pimp).

What men in all the world have shown such daring?

Edited 10 Jul 09, 4:01 PM by DaddysTouch

I don't for a moment expect that 'a good reason' includes a pro-Domme who uses one to enable a client's submission, although this is, IMHO, as good a reason as wanting to play boy scouts in the woods with one!

Lady Alpha

ps I have an ornamental sword looking for a new home...

Pro-domme, switch and sub. Disciplinary and conventional therapy and life coaching Pro-sub

Edited 10 Jul 09, 3:55 PM by Penny_Louise

Out of interest though (your 'not suitable' comment) I can slice with a "blunt" stainless Iaito in tamashigiri practise through quite a few soaked straw mats rolled and tied tightly together. Technique is infinity more important than edge. hell even an alloy blade will slice through somebody quite happily as you are only ever cut with the top 3 inches of the tip and that is travelling at quite a velocity on the curve of the cut.

geiko san as per previous, weirdly sharpness is not an issue in the gov definition of a "Samurai Sword" (though of course the term has no meaning, which samurai? which period? 800Ad-1850Ad which design and length of blade? sigh.)

Johnny Mugger is admittedly unlikely to go out and spend three hundred squids plus on an pukka Iaito of course so the whole concept of the legislation was undoubtedly knee jerk and flawed. from this government...., who would have thunk it!

This debacle isn't just about buying , it is also about legalities of selling, which also applies if you have a blade you wish to move on.

On a safety front to the OP, Worth noting that the cheap display blades i.e. one not sold from a respectable budo supplier are often hideous quality, some examples have the blade just brazsed to a rat tail piece of steel embedded in a handle, they are therefore often more dangerous to the wielder and spectators than a proposed victim as the blade is quite likely to break or fly out of the handle with the first cut.

If you have a cheap blade, dont wave it around, hang it on a wall and admire it.

- Wulfie

My, what sharp teeth I have.

Edited 14 Jul 09, 2:01 AM by BadWulf

I was asking because I own an ornamental sword, not a samuri one, that I would like to sell without running foul of the law.

Does anyone know what the easiest way of doing this would be?

"Quit? Once I was thinking about quitting when I was diagnosed with brain, lung and testicular cancer, all at the same time. But with the love and support of my friends and family, I got back on the bike and I won the Tour de France five times in a row. But I'm sure you have a good reason to quit" L.Armstrong