The increasing acceptance of BDSM? (57)

People do become more conservative with age.

It's easy to be a radical when you're an unattached hippy. A bit harder after 4 kids, a mortgage and a job in middle management.

"If your not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if your not a conservatie by 30 you have no mind."

Curing the sickness that lies between yourself and your goals.

As for the OP, I find it amazing how many old friends who surface on places like Facebook who have bdsm interests, and are quite open about it.

It seems like everybody's doing it.

Ariane

Oh yeah? Like having kids, mortgages and a job in middle management is mandatory because you are older. Or developing a sudden urge to make jam* and listening to Cliff Richard.

It's easy to be a radical at any age, if you *are* one, not if you are posing with your mates.

Don't worry, you'll find out that life isn't one boring size fits all when you grow older

*I like making jam, incidentally, but I'll safeword at Cliff Richard.

Pornified Man-Hater Extraordinaire.

Edited 28 Jun 09, 7:20 AM by Ms_Tytania

Not everyone. Here's an article marking the 80th birthday of veteran nuclear disarmament campaigner (and former Catholic priest) Bruce Kent http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun...

concluding:

Anyway we're not talking here about political conservatism but tolerance / acceptance / celebration of diversity of sexual expression.

(Didn't quite get cookie's distinction between tolerance and acceptance)

Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est. http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/226772/

Edited 28 Jun 09, 7:47 AM by wonderer

Most people in the UK do not read BDSM activism everyday and may have only the vague understanding generated by the Tabloids.

Hence why demand someone Accept something they dont understand, would you?

If I posted some really abstract economic theory and said you should accept it how would you react?

You could respect the opinion and Tolerate the idea but pushing for acceptance steps into the world of Orwell and thought controll. Most people would instinctivley baulk at it.

Its a lot easier just to teach or preach general tolerance imo.

Bruce Kent is a radical and a small c conservative imo.

Thanks for a really interesting thread.

I think this is a really good question and I think you are right about the general population's increasingly liberal position. My view on this is that BDSM activists are not in particular the cause of greater tolerance (though people campaigning about other sexual rights have contributed a lot, such as gay movement and BDSM people have been involved in that too).

Perhaps what is happening with BDSM people who are taking in greater numbers to sexual rights activism, is that we are trying to take advantage of the potential of this liberal trend to further our personal rights and privileges in a climate where we are losing more of them.

One of my concerns is that with increasing laws against our interests and practices and state sanctioned discrimination in employment, if we do not fight to hold position (by presssing forward) government stands a chance of pushing the social trend into reverse by further criminalising, excluding and demonising us.

It's nice that wider society is more tolerant of what they consider to be alternative sexualities, but it's not a lot of use to us to us where the illegality of our practices and information are concerned, or for anyone who has already been jailed, sacked, attacked, lost their kids or been outed and humiliated for being a BDSM person.

De

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There is certainly an ongoing trend in the media to push the boundaries as far as they can get away with. This publicity encourages curiosity in many (of whatever age).

Fetishistic costume goes in and out of fashion in the clubs – like flares. There is however a huge difference in playing with handcuffs, riding crops and roleplay costumes and full-on sadomasochistic torture and humiliation.

In play, we know what is dangerous and what is not (or damn well should do before inflicting ourselves on someone who trusts us). We pick who we play with carefully (or should do). What will always remain is that that 'vanillas' are totally freaked by blood, widespread bruising and the sight of players in tears or apparently screaming in fear, and are unlikely ever to empathise with that.

"He took a single sip of her pain and found it exquisite"

Good grief. I think you just turned the thread sexy

De

Sign up to CAAN's statement www.caan.org.uk
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I see two main aspects in your question - one is the internet and one is openness. Let me reply to your question with that view in mind.

The internet has changed everything and I am not talking about BDSM only here. We live in a time where it is easier to get information, where it's easier to connect, but also where it's easier to be an anonymous “something” hidden between millions of others.

I started to explore BDSM and the scene before I had access to the internet and I must say that the scene felt different then. Partly because I have changed since then, partly because the scene has changed – but also due to the internet.

When I started on the scene, you had to actively try to find munches, clubs, events. You had to make and effort, know what you want, get magazines, have a look at message boards in pubs, even ask people. The scene felt smaller but also more protective. People you met there were usually people who dared things – and who really wanted them.

Nowadays you use google and type “BDSM munch/club London” and will get a list, homepages, forums like IC where people discuss the different events and and and. You are at home, on your home, noone sees what you are looking at (or so you think! ), it feels “safe” to find out about things first, you somehow feel you are taking part in things already without even leaving your chair.

So has the internet changed BDSM? Definitely! Don't get me wrong, it has its good and bad sides. It is easier for people who are interested, but of course also for those who aren't.

Pre-internet it was not as likely to stumble over clubs, munches, events. Yes, there were always some events which were open and advertised. But the majority was smaller, a bit hidden – or no, hidden is not the right word, as we never tried to actively hide, it was just the way it was. You looked for it, you found it. You didn't look, you often didn't see.

Now, no matter if you are looking for it or not, you will find. And yes, that is also thanks to the internet. BDSM is not new – far from it. But the way of advertising it over the internet is a new way to put it into the public eye. So yes, the internet has helped to make it more well known.

How about acceptance then? Well, we can ignore what we don't know about. We have to deal with things which are being presented to us though. So yes, the acceptance will also have increased thanks to the internet – but the same goes for the people who don't and won't accept it. It's normal. I don't have an opinion about things I don't know much about – but people will build an opinion when they learn about those things. Be it positive or negative.

The second point – openness.

I am German, I have been active on the scene in Germany for years. In 2007 I moved to London and am pretty active on the scene in the UK. People often ask me about my experiences, what the differences are. My reply is always the openness. Over here, people are still very private in general. In Germany, people are very open. Yes, this is my own experience and it is a general impression – there are always individuals who are more or less open, no matter where.

I have never – even when I started – felt the urge to hide what I am doing and that was over a decade ago. That does not mean walking around with a sign around my neck – but just being “me”, no matter where I am. Please don't get the next part wrong, this is not at all a judgment – just my impression.

Many people in the UK can be who they are in an environment where they feel protected. That can be in private with a partner or online, where they “hide” behind an anonymous nickname to express their opinions, they go to clubs and munches where they feel safe. Outside in the “normal” world many people here seem to hide this “second” life. They feel it is something very private and don't want to share it with other people outside the scene. Not everybody, not everywhere of course.

My experiences in Germany were that people – even the shy or private ones, were usually still more open. Yes you would always have very private people, yes you always have people who only “live” online. But those who do go to munches or clubs or events were usually not afraid to show it.

The reason why is probably a cultural aspect. In Germany you can be open – and nothing wrong will happen. People are more accepting, even if they don't share this interest. Whereas over here in the UK people fear being open because of the consequences.

I often do things which are normal for me – and people around me say “you can't” this or that. Yes I can, because I don't fear what might happen. My upbringing – both in family and society – was that openness is something good and nothing to be afraid of.

If BDSM is or will be more acceptable is in my opinion a question of the individuals. As long as we act like we have something to hide we give the impression that it is something bad. If we are open about it, and treat it as something normal, just another aspect of ourselves or our lives – people will get this impression as well and react accordingly in my experience.

Not everybody can – or wants to – be open. But the more people are open, the more it will get “normal” and accepted and that is exactly what has been happening over the last years or decades.

Sorry for the long post if anybody read it all

taking a break