Unable to leave? (10)

I've given a bit of thought to this 'inability to leave' thing as well, because of its link to the definition of slavery (as distinct from 24/7 D/s). There seems to be a school of thought that says someone is not a slave unless they are, like you, unable to leave the relationship. And if they do find themselves able to leave, even if they weren't previously, that means the M/s relationship has broken down to an extent that it can't really call itself M/s (although may, of course, still be D/s).

With all due respect, and without denying that 'inability to leave' (in the way you describe it, rather than an abusive way) is perhaps the ultimate goal, I'm not sure that it's the sole defining characteristic of slavery. It's something which is by no means unique to M/s or D/s relationships but which occurs naturally in vanilla. By its nature it is bizarrely very strong but also very fragile.

Maybe I just can't see any real difference between M/s and a strong 24/7 D/s relationship other than words. Maybe I'm a heretic or something for saying so. Or maybe I just don't understand what I'm doing yet.

"Be quiet and come with me. I won't betray you."

I have spent a lot of time reading the boards on slavery vs submission and feel that this is the strongest part of the seperation of sub/slave argument. That they are owned and cannot leave until given their freedom by their Master; even if they feel they can no longer remain in the relationship. Whereas someone who considers themselves a submissive can leave without his permission even if they feel unable. Just my honest opinion

For example, i would have to wait for Master to decide to release me, i no longer have the choice of staying or going. i think the distinction loiters somewhere in the distinction between being a collared submissive and being owned property...both have an Owner...one has free will; the other has no right to that.

Make any sense?

ooops...split personality got me there, i meant to respond as l_c...apologies all! x

Edited 2 May 09, 7:52 PM by The_Slave_Forum

Or is it the love of a slave for their Master which produces the prohibition as an expression of their love?

Now, I'm a sexual submissive. I have freedom of choice, in that I choose to obey, that I choose to submit to punishment, and that I am free to leave. I stay and I submit because I love him as my husband and as my Master. I want to please him. But it is a totally conscious decision on my part. I crave brutality and suffering. He provides it.

I attempt to empathize with slaves, to understand their drives, and I must confess, that as a submissive I struggle with it. I doubt I will ever be able to adopt 'the slave mindset' - consciously or otherwise.

Thus the concept of being 'unable to leave' is alien to me. I, however, do not doubt it exist nor the depth of enslavement felt by slaves.

f x

Cookie Monster In Bondage!
Any posts made between the hours of 2am and 6am are the product of a drink-addled, sleep-deprived mind and hence don't count. Thank you.

i find this such an interesting concept, as i believe one can be enslaved without feeling love...i have experienced this in the past, as i am sure have others..

Beautifully put...as a submissive, you operate on free will and choice..your expressed needs for "brutality and suffering" are fulfilled by him...

my personal opinion is that as a slave, the Master's needs supercede the slave's...and slaves' needs are acknowledged and met by their Owners as a kindness rather than a right.

And here we can express these differences happily x

Have you ever looked fear in the face and said i just don't care? It's only half past the point of no return...the Thunder before the lightning, the breath before the phrase (Pink)

It's taken me a while to accept my needs. I have struggled against them since I followed Altheus home that day. I became a brat, for want of a better word.

In the end, I had to seek the 'wisdom' of Freud. My Id's Pleasure Principle needs 'brutality and suffering'. My Ego, the reality provider, knows that through submission and obedience, my Id will be satisfied. However, my Superego really doesn't hold with this sort of thing. Social conditioning has sculpted my Superego. You are a woman of the 21st century, it says, it is wrong of you to act like this! Thus conflict exists.

My Ego acted as a buffer between the Id and Superego. I craved brutality but hesitated to ask for it. For I felt it shamed me. Thus, I bratted. I wanted Altheus to take me in hand, to take responsibility and therefore, absolved me of all guilt. I was forced, don'tcha know!

But I have now accept them. I am a sexual submissive. It's taken me six years to get this far.

I'm heavy going.

f x

Cookie Monster In Bondage!
Any posts made between the hours of 2am and 6am are the product of a drink-addled, sleep-deprived mind and hence don't count. Thank you.

This is where I am struggling to understand - and beyond a certain point it really doesn't matter whether I call myself submissive or slave, it is the relationship that I have with my Master which matters, provided I am pleasing to him it doesn't matter whether he calls me his submissive or his slave (and it is up to him). But I have always up to now described myself - and been called - submissive not slave, however I do feel unable to leave.

"That hurts......please don't stop!"

I am viewing this concept in a whole new light thanks to being in a much more healthy relationship, however as much as I felt that i could not leave my previous one, I just snapped one day and never went back.

I do believe we have defence mechanisms planted in us, so if things do end up terrible we can do what we have to do, however if we look at life as a snapshot, an inability to leave can certainly exist.

It's quite fascinating, especially as I'm quite a big believer in being able to do anything I put my mind to, but I guess I'd have to be able to put my mind to it first

It's not a subject I've spent a lot of time worrying about, and I suggest that you shouldn't either - just be comfortable with how things are

ven

------ http://www.dv8fetishclub.co.uk
http://www.footmanjohn.com

Vastitude:

Starting with the submissive/slave definitions: my experience is that they are deeply personal groups of behaviour that people can't easily agree on simply because of the vast expanse of situations and emotions that are being labelled.

Bad memories:

Take 'humiliation', for example; name-calling can be humiliating, but while some names add to a situation's intensity, some will trigger a very negative repulsion in the recipient. If you experience bad name-calling first, you're likely to find the concept of 'humiliation' abhorrent. It may become a hard limit. Someone who has never experienced a bad flash from name-calling, may always find it a turn-on, with an opposing view on the humiliation.

Mental Lego:

So just one tiny event can effect one's perception of a group of behaviours in a big way. The result being that you end up building a picture of what you are and are not, based upon your personal image (most people see themselves as what they feel they _could_ do, and see others by what they have done already).

Memes:

Humans copy each other (meme theory) and use previous experience to choose what to copy. Someone who reads "The Story of 'O' ", for example, may aspire to being any character in the book while they are reading it and end up wanting to copy features of the character to feel what was described in the book.

Comfort-zones:

Generally what is being sought is emotional. Many who grow up and no longer have parental support, or feel they never had enough and deserve some, put themselves in positions that help them feel child-like and protected again. Going to church provides an instant Father, as does dating someone much older, or age-play.

Probably not natural:

Many submissives state that they never wanted to be submissive, but always were, just as dominants are often 'natural'. Brains are wired this way (to make us think we meant to do something that happened without conciousness), so it is more likely that people aspire and copy, than are 'born' dom/sub. My parents and those who know me say I've always been dominant: always the leader at school etc. but I'm sure I that that reinforcement in itself has a big part to play. I've seen plenty of people switch from one extreme to another with seemingly little effort.

Infinite variety; with the same label:

Wanting to be submissive can stem from just about any stimulus: I've known rape-victims who wanted re-plays, manic depressives who felt they deserved pain, women who go from one abusive relationship to another: they are more physically based responses, hormone and mental-state addictions. Many are of emotional origin, bored or confused about sex and roles, some think that slaves are like princesses: a treasured possession who exist for orgasms, but not to actually do anything else! Fewer, but there is still a definite pattern, are high-fliers in corporate environments who haven't come to terms with their power and need some power exchange to balance themselves. The rest seem to be Nigerian...

The question:

Being a child is a state where one supposedly 'cannot leave'. Being married is meant to be the same. What I imagine this post is trying to find is what part of not being able to leave is the slave-based part. On top of that, how can slave-based be defined?

Not the question:

Physically can't leave is by addiction or imprisonment, which are supposedly illegal, though I wonder if a relationship can itself be properly addictive.

Just for fun:

At the end of my ramble, I've effectively said it's all too personal for an answer from someone else to be meaningful... (only I said it in far too many words) but if something I say helps you define things for your self, that may be valuable!

Slavemissive:

For myself, a submissive is someone who is devoted to being a good partner, but makes distinct decisions to submit (or not) prior to certain events (all rights reserved). A slave is someone who submits just once at the start of a relationship (all rights reversed). After fifteen years of M/s relationships, that's the best I can come up with: as soon as I try to add more, I find an exception :-/

Labels of Value:

What is in common, though, is that the label is incredibly important to each individual. Their value-system depends on being referred to in the right way... that's given me another intangible definition to separate submissives and slaves: "submissives know what they want and slaves know what they don't want"... My profile is trying to find a slave who isn't assertive and is unlikely to ever succeed.

Leave? Never:

I'm very married: we've had a lot of visiting slaves and good and bad times. We're both naturally very dominant, so you might think we'd clash, but we work together like clockwork. Neither of us are sub or slave and yet neither can leave: the very idea seems insane; just as it did when I lived with my parents... But then, one day, I grew up and left...

I suspect that like love, the feeling of not being able to leave (when emotional) is a strong mental state that isn't specific to slave relationships (probably linked to good, well-evolved, survival-based childhood emotions) that would make a big difference to the feeling of being enslaved: an emotional bond. Just the existence of this thread may make people think about their relationships: "Do I feel I couldn't leave?", and perhaps show them a new treasure, the feeling of being emotionally bound: a way of measuring their link and (inter)dependence.

Man, I type too fast: next post will be shorter, I promise: I'll type it with my nose

Ross

I suppose its something like that I was getting at. I find it really hard to get my head round. My slave might be a certain way today but feelings and circumstances change from minute to minute. I know control should extend to that length but no matter how 'good' the dom/m-type is,they cannot be everywhere anticipating everything. Its necessary of course to work with change even unpredictable change but I always come up against the barrier of not being able to predict the future (or too many of them )

"Be quiet and come with me. I won't betray you."