SM on Woman's Hour (9)

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Fri 29 Aug 08, 4:26 PM
vellan_drang
UK, 2 yrs Apologies if this is a GOAB thread (have looked but can't find).
Did anyone catch Radio 4's 'Woman's Hour' this morning about The New Joy of Sex? The author of the updated version, Susan Quilliam, was interviewed, together with a marital psychotherapist by the name of Brett Carr.
Dr Carr mentioned that a present-day readership might be more critical of and sceptical about what the original author (Alex Comfort) said on the possibilities of sadomasochism [sic], especially given that those who practised SM practices, or became embroiled (he seemed to relish the word) therein, might have had histories of early childhood sexual abuse.
I haven't read the original (1972), but Quilliam clarified that Comfort had talked about SM as a way of playing, bondage, pain, power balance (though not in ways we might understand it today), SM as an extension of love-making; he was good on physical warnings, but not psychological.
It struck me that both Jane Garvey (presenter) and Susan Quilliam were careful on this subject, and for me, it was Carr who stood out as hackneyed and predictable, although of course his experience might derive from a clientele who self-select to an extent, with these characteristics. Presumably happy couples who indulge in SM don't go to see psychotherapists? If I'm happy in an SM relationship, have suffered 'early childhood abuse' and see a psychotherapist about the latter, is s/he tempted to see SM as a consequence of abuse, and disregard the 'happiness' bit? Post hoc ergo propter hoc?
I think it was his choice of vocab., not least 'embroiled', that made me uncomfortable.
The relevant bit crops up about 3 minutes' through the feed.
v._dr

29 Aug 08, 5:05 PM
Frogbaiter
UK, 12 mths
You can catch it again from the programme's website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/
There's an article there - one on the Times website too.
Steve
my work in progress... http://www.bound4pleasure.co.uk

29 Aug 08, 5:20 PM
overlap
UK(CF), 4 yrs
Y!
The Times article is actually very good.
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_styl...

It is hard to know whether Comfort would have regarded our highly sexualised society as progress. No doubt he would have applauded the mainstreaming of sex shops and the sheer volume of chat on the subject, but he would surely have been shocked by the paucity of sex education, a subject Quilliam cares about passionately. She would like schools to introduce weekly lessons about relationships. "Only 25 per cent of girls enjoy losing their virginity whereas the percentage is much higher for boys. That is down to biology but nobody ever tells the kids that," she says. "Kids want the emotional relationship stuff and the negotiating skills - how to say no to someone who says 'if you loved me you'd sleep with me'."

Reason is and ought to be the slave of the passions and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them.
David Hume

29 Aug 08, 7:16 PM
darkwaterfairy
UK(SA), 23 mths Oh no, not Brett Carr again! >_<
Despite what letters he has behind his name, he's an utter idiot who should be banned from doing research ...thou when I say doing research, I mean making shit up. ..or ever being a source for anything.
Another reason why I want to shoot whoever does the guest bookings for women's hour and take their place for eternity.
Edited 29 Aug 08, 7:20 PM by darkwaterfairy

30 Aug 08, 2:13 AM
darkmoonfire
UK, 23 mths
vellan_drang wrote:
SM on Woman's Hour
Dr Carr mentioned that a present-day readership might be more critical of and sceptical about what the original author (Alex Comfort) said on the possibilities of sadomasochism [sic], especially given that those who practised SM practices, or became embroiled (he seemed to relish the word) therein, might have had histories of early childhood sexual abuse.
v._dr
Childhood sexual abuse? This person is a cretin and should not ever be given a research grant every again. Most social science is pseudoscience.
He, and 99.9% of social scientists, need to learn the following mantra: "correlation is NOT causation."
So... like 10% of the population have been abused as children? (I know the Sun would like to make sure everyone thinks that. because it's a marvelous way of manipulating how people think -- the truth is it's much rarer than the tabloids would have anyone believe)
Total garbage. The BBC is nothing but propaganda these days.

Edited 30 Aug 08, 2:15 AM by darkmoonfire

4 Sep 08, 9:07 AM
Vindobona_1
UK(HP), 3 yrs
Y!
As a male, semi-regular listener to Wimmin's hour (or at least the radio is alway on), I seem to have the impression that the programme is obsessed with sexual matters. Hardly a day goes by before there is some reference to matters sexual, psychosexual or social, often what is wrong with something or someone - something must be done.
I begin to find WH's obsession with matters sexual disappointing and to some extent depressing. I'm not suggesting that WH only broadcast safe items, far from it.
Perhaps its me? Maybe I think there should be more handy kitchen tips, how to run a dinner party, other domestic trivia. No I don't, but I am old enough to feel embarrassed by the frankness of some items, angered by the frequent criticism of men, unhappy about the way some people are treated by the presenters.
Am I an MCP?
Have fun anyway, Tony
A dedicated rubberman.

4 Sep 08, 10:28 AM
Miss_Swoons
UK(M), 16 mths

I have to say I heard this item on the weekend edition (I'm unemployed at the moment and I'm listening to woman's hour as I type) and I nearly broke the cup I was washing up-there's a stepford wife image for you. This chap who harped on about the murkiness of people who enjoy sado-masochism is part of a context of therapy and analysis that is still indirectly supported by a lot of practitioners. Alice Miller's book 'The Drama of the Gifted Child' a guide for adults who wish to conquer and get past memories of abusive and unhappy childhoods describes how one can stay in the role of an abused child into ones adulthood.According to Miller, people who practise S/M are simply replaying past abuse 'which they think they enjoy'. This book was recommended to me by a counsellor just a few years ago and it is still a book spoken highly of (and in some respects deservedly, it is an interesting and intelligent book, albeit irritatingly tinged with a narrow-minded attitude towards what can be healthy and happy adult development).
I'm glad that woman's hour which I still think of as a relatively conservative programme (or as a male friend of mine puts it 'cosy waitrose shopping feminist lite'-harsh, im a radio4 listener who shops at asda) will broach these issues.
Plus, does anyone remember a woman's hour which must have been about 8 years ago where they interviewed a pro-domme? That was handled intelligently and sensitively, and was the first time I heard the term 'vanilla'! (I was only 15...)
Edited 4 Sep 08, 10:31 AM by Miss_Swoons

19 Sep 08, 12:16 AM
Professor_Tim
UK(HP), 4 yrs

Well said.
It pisses me off when people quote "scientific" studies, like one frigging study is the be all and end all of any kind of debate on the matter. Like science has "proven" something to be the case, using one methodology and a couple of repeat studies.
So many scientific studies seem to have badly flawed protocols which look designed to produce a skewed set of results to me in the first place.
And that's before you get onto people potentially falsifying the results, because they are shy of hard work, frightened to find out the real truth because it might involve some brain-work to explain, or p[robably a combination of both factors.
I feel a "Grrrr moment" coming on...

thongadongalong wrote:
Speaking from he viewpoint of knowing many "researchers" who were students in68 to 74 era a lot of scientific studies upon which clowns like the aforementioned Brett Carr base their so called factual work are labouring under a cloud of self delusion.
the research studies were never carried out. The results were invented by armies of students too shy/frightened/embarrased to actually do the questioning involved. They sat round pub tables filling the forms out. far pleasenter thandoing the work and aimed the results at giving the study the results they thought they needed to give to get better course marks.
the classic east end bethnal green social conditions survey by masters and someone was done this way, so were a whole series of sex and behavoiral ones.
it still happens today.

* * *
Sunbeams are not made like me.

19 Sep 08, 12:19 AM
Miss_Simone_I
UK(CB), 2 yrs
Y!
I see Susan Quilliam lives here in Cambridge, maybe we should invite her to the Cambridge Munch
What do people think?
Simone x
=^_^= SIMONE =^o^=
** Carpe Diem **

19 Sep 08, 12:43 AM
Tweedydaddy
2 yrs

Vindobona_1 wrote:
As a male, semi-regular listener to Wimmin's hour (or at least the radio is alway on), I seem to have the impression that the programme is obsessed with sexual matters. Hardly a day goes by before there is some reference to matters sexual, psychosexual or social, often what is wrong with something or someone - something must be done.
I begin to find WH's obsession with matters sexual disappointing and to some extent depressing. I'm not suggesting that WH only broadcast safe items, far from it.
Perhaps its me? Maybe I think there should be more handy kitchen tips, how to run a dinner party, other domestic trivia. No I don't, but I am old enough to feel embarrassed by the frankness of some items, angered by the frequent criticism of men, unhappy about the way some people are treated by the presenters.
Am I an MCP?
Have fun anyway, Tony
They are obsessed with reasons not to have sex you mean. I'd be better off listening to the story of O read by anne widdicombe I thought, as I heard it, with the will to live slowly leaving me.
life is never that full that you can't squeeze a bit more fun into it.


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