Warning for campaigns II (96)

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Tue 26 Aug 08, 9:54 PM
Degenerate
UK, 21 mths
Unfortunately I need to pursue this thread due to the volume of implied lies in it.
ON being asked who will create the ACPO guidelines, (as xjames has an ear in ACPO, despite them refusing to talk to CAAN on any level so far).
xjames said: "MoJ and ACPO with a little bit of internal legal help."
Yes we know that, we did our research, that's why we went to them. I was asking for names really.
xjames said: "Do what you like in wasting your own time on your "mission". Just think before you act."
You seriously suggesting nobody thought about this action or researched the target for advice seeking? That would be nuts and is wrong. And I think you mean CAAN not me.
xjames said: "CAAN has lost sight of the objective. Given the law can not be changed, and will be implemented (barring a coup d'etat), I fail to see what is to be gained by a clearly futile "advice seeking" mission. As I have said, there are legal reasons why no one will give you an answer."
CAAN has not lost sight of its objective at all. its objective has been to take action regarding the extreme porn ban. We are taking action and we will continue to do so for a long time, so you may as well get used to it. We're only just getting started.
And yes we ARE really trying to get advice about the images and you could stop trying to pretend we are not. Once again you are repeatedly implying things which are just not true, you know they are not true as you have been told them time and time again and you repeating them does not make them true - if you are repeating them to ACPO then you are not telling the truth, or you somehow seem to still have the wrong information depite us repeatedly publically giving it to you (so they can read this themselves).
We think we SHOULD be able to get advice or at least consideration, we have had some advice already as far as possible from the police - ACPO and anyone in the system can check this with West Midlands Police, who treated us excellently and were willing to help. We will continue to seek advice anywhere we think someone could help.
We have hundreds of pieces of genuine evidence sent by genuine people, it would be a bit ridiculous to spend all the time spent collating and producing them if we weren't doing what we say we're doing with them and we'd also have gained those images under false pretences. People have submitted them for this purpose and until we can no longer do it we will continue to try to get that advice. Whether or not it makes the organisations involved uncomfortable. Whether or not we are welcome. Why are these reasonable questions unwelcome?
xjames said: "Given this, what is CAAN for - perhaps just to kick up a stink on the doorsteps of the "establishment" because that's what gets some people off? Hmm?"
No cos that would just be silly wouldn't it - almost as silly as suggesting this and trying to spread stupid rumours about it and what you think CAAN is 'really doing' as a self-declared outsider who wants us to stop the tactics we are using. People are putting themselves out and at some risk coming out over this and getting involved in this and to even suggest the above is untrue, nasty and quite an insult to all of us. It's destructive and can't be ignored.
Opinions are one thing - I have no problem with people not liking CAAN's tactics and I think lively debate is a good thing not a bad thing. The evidence of that is all over this board like a rash I will discuss and discuss - not always agree - but I don't argue against anyone's right to a view - on the contrary I am, involved in CAAN knowing that unfortunately some people will feel that way. Lots is taken on board by people doing CAAN work from debates everywhere, everything CAAN does is a combination of ideas put together by various people.
However, deliberately spreading what you know are malicious untruths is a kinda different thing to having an opinion and harder to feel ok about. I feel like you are being quite offensive to everyone involved and deliberately destructive.
De
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Edited Tue 26 Aug 08, 10:19 PM by Degenerate

26 Aug 08, 11:38 PM
Grownup_Frankie
9 mths De, be cool, what with xjames's hints about him 'talking to the right people' and 'time will tell' and stuff, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's hearing very loud warning bells now.
The guy actually thinks the authorities are colaborating with HIM.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't...So we might as well do.

26 Aug 08, 11:46 PM
Fallen_AngelDelite
UK(BD), 16 mths
while I have not, for a variety of reasons, been able to be involved with CAAN, I would just like to say that I fully support what they are doing and understand the reasons of the course of action they are taking. For anyone to muddy this with his or her own half baked ideas is not only crazy but stupid.
If xjames thinks that not trying to force clarification on what sort of image will be illegal is pointless and/or stupid then he is frankly not to be trusted, imho. To say that what CAAN is doing is simply so that some people can 'get off' on causing whatever is simplistic, naive and lacking in anything resembling intelligent thought.
Personally I am very glad that Degenerate has stood up and been counted as well as those who have, unlike myself, got off their arses and used their right to demonstrate peacefully their opposition to a stupid and dangerous piece of repressive law. If we all don't start to get off our backsides soon even the right to peaceful demonstration may be taken away - I know a couple of police who would love that as it would give them the excuse to severely curtail what freedoms we still have - but in the name of keeping society safe, of course.
edit for crap spelling and grammer
Britain, Home of democracy no longer. Say goodbye to all your freedoms one at a time, but remember it's for YOUR safety!!! When will the people wake up to what's happening?
Edited 26 Aug 08, 11:47 PM by Fallen_AngelDelite

27 Aug 08, 12:01 AM
Grownup_Frankie
9 mths Its over the top now with xjames and his veiled hints - productive criticism is one thing, but someone going off and doing god knows what, talking with who, exactly? and saying what? all on their own behalf without being part of any network or group, representing no one - thats really worrying.
Yes, for sure, CAAN is not representing EVERYONE, but its made every attempt to advertise itself and encourage involvement, so that it CAN be representative.
And, folks, for god's sake, its got to be more represntative AND more answerable to others than xjames's 'secretive' discussions.
Fecks sake!
We're damned if we do and damned if we don't...So we might as well do.

27 Aug 08, 12:13 AM
xjames
UK(SS), 2 yrs
Degenerate wrote:
CAAN has not lost sight of its objective at all. its objective has been to take action regarding the extreme porn ban. We are taking action and we will continue to do so for a long time, so YOU may as well get used to it. We're only just getting started.

"Taking action" is not an objective. At best it's a tactic - but it's not clear what you want to change.
You won't change the law.
You won't stop it being enacted.
Your "actions" won't do anything to help moderate the ACPO guidance.
It won't help protect anyone who may have borderline pictures.
It may help to piss off ACPO/MoJ - just as they're about to draft guidance which could have a huge impact on people into BDSM.
It may help to focus attention on people into BDSM who might not necessarily be a target for the enforcers of this law.

If you think any of the above is incorrect - please tell me why.
If CAAN continues to take potentially harmful action in the way that it did recently then I will continue to speak out, so you may as well get used to it.
There are lots of things related to civil liberties which CAAN could focus on. The lack of a law on consensual assualt for example. But to try to change a law which was given royal assent less than 6 months ago is ludicrous.
Obligatory wanky Latin tagline: Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit

27 Aug 08, 12:21 AM
xjames
UK(SS), 2 yrs
Grownup_Frankie wrote:
Its over the top now with xjames and his veiled hints - productive criticism is one thing, but someone going off and doing god knows what, talking with who, exactly? and saying what? all on their own behalf without being part of any network or group, representing no one - thats really worrying.
Yes, for sure, CAAN is not representing EVERYONE, but its made every attempt to advertise itself and encourage involvement, so that it CAN be representative.
And, folks, for god's sake, its got to be more represntative AND more answerable to others than xjames's 'secretive' discussions.
Fecks sake!

If I'm doing damage by attempting to have the guidance drawn up in as BDSM-friendly way as possible, then tell me what's the harm? Maybe it's a waste of time - but at least it's not counter-productive.
And as for your pathetic appeal to "folks", this isn't me v CAAN and people have to take a side. It's about me saying what I think is wrong, you doing the same, and 99.9% of people not really caring. My comments are addressed to CAAN, not the gallery.
Obligatory wanky Latin tagline: Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit

27 Aug 08, 12:38 AM
Grownup_Frankie
9 mths xjames, you have been droping hints about talking to the right people, but you clearly haven't been doing that in consultation with anyone else.
So whatever it is you are doing, or think you are doing, you're not doing it in my name. There is CAAN, and there is BACKLASH, which are collective bodies, however flawed and imperfect, and then there is you, with your secrets, and your hints that time will tell.
I don't think you can be trusted. Not to work with others, if it doesn't go your way you just go off on your own and do your own thing, completely unrepresentatively.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't...So we might as well do.

27 Aug 08, 1:14 AM
sirguym
UK, 3 yrs

xjames wrote:
If I'm doing damage by attempting to have the guidance drawn up in as BDSM-friendly way as possible, then tell me what's the harm? Maybe it's a waste of time - but at least it's not counter-productive.
And as for your pathetic appeal to "folks", this isn't me v CAAN and people have to take a side. It's about me saying what I think is wrong, you doing the same, and 99.9% of people not really caring. My comments are addressed to CAAN, not the gallery.
First lesson of being a liberal is that 'come the revolution' the ones in the middle are first up against the wall. Just look at history!
I wish you luck, but please just get on with it. If you're doing what I hope and think you may be doing, just do it.
Trying to stop others doing their own thing, from where you are, is like trying to be the kind, caring arm of the Gestapo. It won't convince.
It just ain't a viable option, you either try to work from within on your own initiative and what resources you can muster from there and leave those 'without' (outside) to do theirs.
Or you don't convince either faction and look like a prat to both sides.
Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality, The Academy Club, The Other Pony Club, Tawsingham Society, Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids: fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity www.tawse.com guy@tawse.com PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100 [pi

27 Aug 08, 3:22 AM
emark
UK, 5 yrs
xjames wrote:
"Taking action" is not an objective. At best it's a tactic - but it's not clear what you want to change.
You won't change the law.
You won't stop it being enacted.
Your "actions" won't do anything to help moderate the ACPO guidance.
It won't help protect anyone who may have borderline pictures.
It may help to piss off ACPO/MoJ - just as they're about to draft guidance which could have a huge impact on people into BDSM.
It may help to focus attention on people into BDSM who might not necessarily be a target for the enforcers of this law.

If you think any of the above is incorrect - please tell me why.
If CAAN continues to take potentially harmful action in the way that it did recently then I will continue to speak out, so you may as well get used to it.
There are lots of things related to civil liberties which CAAN could focus on. The lack of a law on consensual assualt for example. But to try to change a law which was given royal assent less than 6 months ago is ludicrous.
Do you have better suggestions on how to oppose and raise awareness about the extreme porn law?
(Saying we should oppose the law on sadomasochism is a separate issue - people can do both, and feel free to suggest your own actions on how to do that.)
I don't see how their actions are harmful - the police are hardly going to crack down on BDSM solely as some kind of revenge because of someone seeking advice on the law! Furthermore, by this reasoning, no one should ever dare have opposed the law at all, out of fear of "focusing attention" on BDSM.
So far the actions by those opposing the law have helped bring some moderations to the law - I see no evidence that opposing a law makes it worse. By this logic, no one should ever oppose anything.
Section 63 criminalises "extreme" images of consenting adults - see http://www.backlash-uk.org.uk/ and http://www.seenoevil.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Main_... .
Edited 27 Aug 08, 3:29 AM by emark

27 Aug 08, 9:06 AM
lisal
5 yrs Dear Lord people
I reckon there are an awful lot of BDSMers out there who aren't over interested in this whole campaign.
Whole raft of reasons :- doesn't effect them, they don't believe it will effect them, they don't believe they will get caught, they don't know that much about it,apathy etc etc. You only have to look at the threads on this subject to see how few posters on it all there are - and I do realise that there are folks out there who are doing behind the scenes stuff so there are moer than just the visible posters
So do you think rowing on a public board like this is going to help?. Sure post facts but if you want to address each other individually then can't you do it by PM - cos, it strikes me that the way this is going on could well be offputting to someone who does want to get involved etc etc. The last thing anyone here needs is infighting
I fully recognise that CAAN and other organisations state that they don't represent everyone on the BDSM scene/they are a bunch of individuals. That's good but I think there also has to be recognition that if you do lobby/group actions etc it is likely that you may well be perceived by those you are addressing as being representative

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