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3 Aug 08, 7:52 AM
foibey
UK(M), 7 yrs

Safewords aren't really even "sufficient" in and of themselves, let alone "necessary" in my mind from a safety point of view. With enough other precautions in place about the safety of people involved in the scene I would do and have done safe word free scenes.

Safe words are very useful within their limitations though, and I don't think those limits are just about people you haven't played much with, but also about in some situations allowing people to play a little closer to the edge of what they know someone else is capable of coping with and/or not having to ruin a resistance based scene's atmosphere by having to check in regularly.

moo

Edited 3 Aug 08, 7:54 AM by foibey

3 Aug 08, 7:57 AM
senseofsuffering
4 yrs

foibey wrote:
Safe words are very useful within their limitations though.

Agreed... established trust is far more useful

senseofsuffering

3 Aug 08, 8:49 AM
Mr_Smacker
UK, 8 yrs

I'm of the opinion that a “safeword” is necessary, even if it only used to convey the fact their in muscular spasm with after all, it can be debilitating, and personally I can't see the problem with having one in place, it doesn't have to be used.

Mr Smacker

3 Aug 08, 9:14 AM
MasterVilosSlave
UK(CB), 6 yrs

My Master and I have a safeword (that either of us can use if things are getting too much in or out of the scene - although I don't think either of us have used it yet), although its a way for me to express how I feel, not a command for him to stop. He doesn't have to obey it, he just probably will.

That which does not kill us, makes us stranger...
Is swallowing semen canabalism? What have I become?!

3 Aug 08, 9:26 AM
lisal
9 yrs

emark wrote:

Protocol wrote:
It's my opinion that tops should be sensitive enough, and adept enough at reading body language, to the point where there's no NEED for a safeword. Maybe there's a need for them in casual play; I wouldn't know. But long-term, I've never needed one and would hope never to need one.

I've never _needed_ one either (nor is my play "casual"), but the point is it's there just in case. It shouldn't have to be a question of hoping, in my opinion.

I don't think it's a question of tops being not sensitive enough - there might be cases where the top is unaware of something (perhaps internal pain the sub suddenly feels). No one is 100% infallible and psychic, so no matter how good they are, there's no reason in my opinion to do away with an additional safeguard - especially one that is fundamental to the issue of consent (i.e., being able to say "No").

I have nothing against people who don't use safewords nor allow their subs to say "Stop", but I don't get the ideas put foward, or that having a safeword makes things worse. If I asked for a safeword to be removed, then I'd just be back to saying "No" or "Stop", so I don't see it would mean I could be more submissive, and just means there's more scope for unclear communication if I was role-playing, or unable to speak (e.g., gagged). If I don't need a safeword anymore, then I simply don't use it anymore.

I'm still curious - do people who don't use safewords also do things like rape role-play or breath-play? Or is it just that they don't use safewords because the sub could just as easily say "Stop"? If you did say "Stop" during a scene, what would your top do?

Also, to those who've said they had a safeword, then said they now don't have one because they don't need one - supposing one day you did use that safeword. Would your top stop? Or would he carry on because you said you weren't using it anymore?

Just wanted to say good postings all the way through this thread emark. I agree with all you say

I don't have a safeword but our play is gentle and I would state the facts if I wanted to stop. "I don't feel well" etc etc. If I said stop she would stop. Mind I would add the word please to it I think

3 Aug 08, 9:43 AM
Master_Bulldog
UK, 4 yrs

For Me a safeword is a matter of respect. I personally only play if a safe word is agreed. If a new sub was to tell Me that a safeword is not needed, I would wonder if that submissive has any self respect issues, and if so, have a red flag moment. And just for the record, I use the trusty traffic light system.

I agree that the longer a Top and bottom have been doing scenes together the less likely a safeword will be used, but I like to think "what if?". That way Im covered and the sub is self assured.

"Bulldog Spirit" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5...

3 Aug 08, 10:35 AM
Protocol
4 yrs

emark wrote:
I don't think it's a question of tops being not sensitive enough - there might be cases where the top is unaware of something (perhaps internal pain the sub suddenly feels). No one is 100% infallible and psychic, so no matter how good they are, there's no reason in my opinion to do away with an additional safeguard - especially one that is fundamental to the issue of consent (i.e., being able to say "No").

Since when is a safeword the only way of saying 'no'? We're adults. If a sub is coherent and says 'stop, something is wrong' (or similar) then I don't think anyone in their right minds would continue that scene.

emark wrote:
I'm still curious - do people who don't use safewords also do things like rape role-play or breath-play? Or is it just that they don't use safewords because the sub could just as easily say "Stop"? If you did say "Stop" during a scene, what would your top do?

I think maybe you're misunderstanding the nature of this kind of edgeplay, and maybe this is why you don't understand why over-reliance on a safeword can make things worse.

I'm not a permanent edgeplayer by any means, but I've carried out a few scenes which involve breath play, predicament bondage, blood, electricity, and all that other good fun stuff.

And in those scenes a top HAS to be a few steps beyond the sub in terms of what's happening, because you can't trust that sub to be ABLE to say a safeword. They're already dealing with an endorphin rush, a sense of disorientation, plus hugely intense stimulus of varying kinds (and god bless them for it) - in that kind of situation you can't expect someone to be able to think coherently.

And a bad top will - and I've seen this happen - just be pushing it as far as he can go until he hears a safeword. (I say 'he' because, let's face it, it usually is a he.) That's how a safeword can make things worse - they're sometimes used as a replacement for decent communication. Which they aren't.

3 Aug 08, 11:03 AM
curious_kat
UK(N), 5 yrs

For me a safe word is imperative. Not because I'd let anyone Dom me, even if they didn't know me, but because there are occasions where I've had to stop play immediately, with no warning in body language or change in reaction, and getting me out of that situation would become at least 20 times harder if action wasn't taken at once.

For me a safe word is for situations like a that, rather than used for stopping play when the Dom has gone too far.

When I Domme people I give them a safeword for my peace of mind, just in case they have been too proud to tell me something important.

Responding to earlier replies: the Dom(me) does need to know the sub well enough to be able to read them well, and I agree that a lot of the time if the sub needs to stop play because it's too intense it's unlikely that they'll be able to say their safe word anyway, so they are practically useless in that sense.

Edited 3 Aug 08, 11:17 AM by curious_kat

3 Aug 08, 11:10 AM
chartreuse
UK(BA), 6 yrs

A safe word is always an option for any sub of mine, it exists if they need to use it and are able to but... hopefully I know them (and myself) well enough to know when enough is enough.

If a sub is in deep sub-space they are likely to be unable to use a safe-word - it doesn't mean they wouldn't if they could so I have to be extra careful and observant of what I'm doing and how they're reacting.

ETA ~ Subs can say all sorts of things ("Stop", "No", "Please don't") during play, it sounds like they want you to stop what you're doing to them but... if you do stop, they're often disappointed because they were actually enjoying it but wanted to protest to make it more pleasurable for themselves. If you know the sub well enough you will know when the sub is acting/role-playing or actually means what they're saying.

*Further ETA ~ I once spent some time with a Dom that I didn't know well - he attempted to fist me... I found it extremely painful and wanted it to stop so I told him "Stop" he didn't listen to me - it took another 4 times of me telling him (in no uncertain terms) before he did as I said - what a fucking wanker! Needless to say - I didn't maintain contact with him.

"Truth is stranger than fiction."
"It is better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you are not."

Edited 3 Aug 08, 11:25 AM by chartreuse

3 Aug 08, 11:19 AM
littlenic
5 yrs

So all those people who say they don't use a safeword - do you fall into the first sense or second sense, as I describe above? Would you still not use a safeword if you were role-playing a rape scene? Or doing a risky activity such as breath-play? Or do you mean that you don't do those things, so it isn't an issue anyway?

To use Emark's earlier post to frame my answer:

I don't have a safeword, per se. No red, no Hovis, no caterpillar. Instead, on the odd occasion I've needed to stop things, I've used English: "This really isn't working for me right now," or "This really fucking hurts, do something please!".

Which, you know, works well for us, because I'm not a "no, stop, help" type of girl (when I say stop, I mean it), and because himself and I both agree that ultimately what we do should be about us both getting something out of it and if either of us isn't, let's stop that particular scene.

So I suppose you could say I have a 'safeword', in that I do have the right to stop a scene - but on the extremely rare occasion that I need to do this (and I wait a silly amount of time before there really is no alternative!) I don't have a specific word to use.

"Have you ever been married?"

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