More Max Mosely :OS (86)

This post is on the BDSM Activism web board.

24 Jul 08, 1:26 PM
spirifer
UK, 3 yrs

strictlynormal wrote:

nortyboy wrote:
Whats it like to have a rolemodel as a blackshirt?You simply ignore the facts and pick one tiny part of what she says .
Still i am sure you will carry on in the usual way......

Yawn ..
Are you ever going to join the rest of us in the 21st Century?????
Or are you going to ignore 'the facts' and forever dredge up rumours about what may or may nor have happened 40+ years ago?

Steady on! Speak for yourself, matey, not for "us".
Max Mosley was a member of his father's Union Movement, and actively canvassed on its behalf. He acted as election agent for the party, and was arrested for threatening behaviour at the Ridley Road rally.
These are all facts, not rumours.
Now I have no idea whether Mr Mosley still believes in the fascist ideals he followed in his youth, but I have no particular wish to see someone with that kind of history held up as some sort of hero of the BDSM scene. That, I believe, is the problem that many of us have with the kind of hero-worship of Mr Mosley we've seen on the boards recently.
However, having said that, I am very pleased that he won his case for invasion of privacy against the NOTW, and only wish the damages awarded had been more punitive.
The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation - Pierre Trudeau
Doms - women will fancy you if they see you kicking the shit out of a weasel.

24 Jul 08, 1:31 PM
nicolaleeanne
UK, 2 yrs
Y!

MistressLadyAnna wrote:

2) Because of the nature of what happened and the re enactment of scenes from the Nazi era and MM's past the damage to his reputation is nil and he be awarded 1p in damages.
My hatred of Nazi uniforms and re-enactments of torture from the not so distant past in the name of BDSM should by now be known and I wish a different case had received the attention and support not only of those who love BDSM but also, as this has, by the media as a whole (excluding of course the NoW)
What Nazi re-enactment scene? Has that been proved beyond reasonable doubt?
Is speaking German Nazi?
Is being German Nazi perhaps?
Is wearing a jacket from M&S Nazi?
Where were the Swastika?
When was the word Nazi spoken?
Weren't the prisoners wearing US prison outfits?
Didn't Neville Thurlbeck, after being shown 96 video stills, have to shake his head and admit to the court that there wasn't anything remotely Nazi in them?

My first wife was/is German, she spoke German, and i do believe she had a jacket from M&S, alas no swastika. She definitely was not a Nazi. She was no where near dominant enough, and still isn't.

24 Jul 08, 1:32 PM
Fourfiveone
UK, 3 yrs
nortyboy wrote:
Its not "anti nazi paranoia"Even the friends of Max Mosely on here cannot deny he was a member of nazi anti semtic party.They cannot deny he carried out acts of violence in support of that party.
As one of the people who disagreed with you I take offence at statements like "the friends of Max Mosely". Just because somebody disagrees with your political views about Max Mosley doesn't mean that they agree with his political views.
It especially doesn't mean that they agree with political views that you are claiming he has, that may or may not be true.
My own political views are that I dislike the extreme left and the extreme left. It's not the left or right part I dislike, it's the extreme part.
With regard to Mosley having being involved in acts of violence, he was never convicted of any. You've quoted a fine for "obstructing a policeman" but that isn't an offence of violence.
You've also mentioned that Max arrived at one of Oswald's speeches armed. A speech where a group of people attacked Oswald (who at the time was in his 60s) and knocked him to the ground on a cobbled street, and had to be pushed back by the police.
Personally I don't support violence against pensioners being used to stop them speaking regardless of their political beliefs.
In fact I don't support violence against anyone. It just seems worse when they're older. I admit to the prejudice, but it's not a particularly bad one.
If my father had lived into his 60s and mobs of younger fitter people had wanted to beat him up for speaking then, if I couldn't persuade him not to speak, I'd have likely wanted to be in a position to fight back against them. Fortunately for me, my father was a trade union representative and a lifelong labour supporter, so the situation never arose.
There's also some interesting quotes on the net from members of the 43 group and their successors about how they went looking for fascist meetings to disrupt them. Quotes along the lines of "we weren't looking to kill them, we were just looking to maim them".
Given that Max grew up in a situation where people felt the need to attempt to maim his father for holding meetings and speaking, I can feel some sympathy for him turning up at a meeting where his father was due to speak and being armed. When you couple this with the fact that he left the Union Movement when he was 24, over 40 years ago I don't think that there is any incontrovertible evidence that he was a violent Nazi.
Now, having mentioned the 43 group, I'd also say that I can feel some sympathy for people who saw the possible rise of fascism in Britain immediately post war and committed horrible acts of violence to try and stop it. In the situation I can sympathise with them.
However, now we don't live in that situation. Yet a significant amount of violence has happened in the last 15 years from people who consider themselves anti-nazis. Some of this violence has been against old men who wrote books. Books that I personally disagree with, that contain all sorts of horrible ideas, but still books, not death camps.
Some of the violence and threats have been against musicians who use imagery that is (or appears to be) fascist even though they seem to have no fascist leanings themselves. Some of the more minor forms of violence have been against World War 2 re-enactors who play the Nazi side. This is especially abhorrent, because how can we honour the request to "Never Forget" the horrors of World War 2 if idiots try to intimidate the people who are re-enacting it.
nortyboy wrote:
I have simply attempted to say i dont want a person like that doing things in my name, as some on here want for thereselves and the BDSM community.Whats so bad about not wanting to name a law after someone with his past, or any of the other ideas like shaking his hand or max givin out awards at BDSM events.
I accept that, but you did jump into lots of threads with claims that weren't historically correct. If you said "I don't think we should congratulate Max Mosley on taking a stand against the NOTW because he was a member of a facist organisation in the 1960s" then fair enough. I might disagree with you on whether that affects what it does now, but I'd have no problem with it.
On the other hand, when you start commenting about how Max would try and have us all exterminated if he could, I think that's unreasonable. Max Mosley is not Adolf Hitler. It's as unrealistic as holding Gerry Gable responsible for the actions of Joseph Stalin, just because of Communism.

nortyboy wrote:
Had some people on this Board simply accepted that some others dont like his past political history ,we wouldnt have had the type and amount of debate.It wasnt me that invented "Nortyboys Board"and wanted to monitor "my online presence" was it?I find it ironic they complained i posted too many comments on this subect,all in response to them,and then complained when i didnt post on a board that they had disrespectfully created in my name. You are right to use words like goad,they have behaved in a very unpleasant manner.
No, the objection was that you were quite happy to debate Max Mosley's politics in threads about Max Mosley's court case, but you weren't prepared to debate Max Mosley's politics in a thread about Max Mosley's politics.
If you had valid points to make about why Max Mosley in 2008 was such an awful person then you could have made them in that thread and persuaded everyone who didn't agree with you.
Edited 24 Jul 08, 2:47 PM by Fourfiveone

24 Jul 08, 1:34 PM
pinkglitterbomb
UK(W), 13 mths

spirifer wrote:
and only wish the damages awarded had been more punitive.
Very tue.... and also, I bet they don't go to any BDSM related cause.... maybe not such a good poster boy after all.

24 Jul 08, 1:38 PM
ClassAct2005
UK, 3 yrs
I thought the idea is that we would be prepared to die etc to defend the right of others to express views and practise private sexuality we abhor. Not that I know anything about MM's current political views. It's one of the good things about this country (still, just about)

24 Jul 08, 2:36 PM
The_Inner_Whore
UK(E), 3 yrs
pinkglitterbomb wrote:
It all started from this.
http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/boards/activism...

Anyone in particular? any specific post? Thee is a hello of a lot written on that thread!
Cultivate your inner whore

24 Jul 08, 2:57 PM
WickedHands
UK, 7 yrs
Y! In light of today's judgement (and Mosley's brief verbal statement), it only seems reasonable to repeat what was on another thread.
Anyone continuing to tread the "Mosley is a nazi" boards is treading on very thin ice.
The Judge made it plain, as a finding of fact, that there were no nazi overtones in the activities which were relevant to the proceedings.
Another repeat from another thread; it is not for Mosley to pro-actively make statements about his CURRENT beliefs - it is for those asserting by attribution to evidence such beliefs. To date, no evidence (note the emphasis on current). And, you can be certain that the NOTW would have dredged very very deep to try to find something more current than the events in Mosley's past.
As an aside, I happen to agree that there is a positively hypocritical element to some of the postings. On the one hand; "Mosley is great because he's 'one of us'" (er, is he? Am I one of "us"?). On the other hand, "Now that Mosley has served our purpose, he can now be discarded because there are elements in his past that we don't want to be inconveniently associated with".

24 Jul 08, 3:12 PM
mrandy
UK(SS), 16 mths
Y!
What would be the attitude if Oswald Mosley during the 1930's had been a member of the Communist party and supported the ideology of Lenin,Trotsky and Stalin which was responsible for the murder of millions of people in the USSR (read The Great Terror by Robert Conquest). And also imagine that young Max had joined his father in the party. Would the current reaction be equally as hostile? I am involved with BDSM and also I am Jewish. A previous poster mentioned the 43 Group. They were a group of British Jewish ex servicemen who disrupted meetings of the Union Movement after WW2. One of those ex servicemen was my great uncle. Of course because of my background i totally hate any Fascist or Nazi idelogy, but the relevant point is that because of our sexual preferences we are at risk of being outed by the tabloids and in that regard Max Mosley's court victory is a victory for all of us. As for Max Mosley I would hope he would publicly disassociate himself from his father's beliefs, but that is seperate to BDSM.

24 Jul 08, 3:34 PM
mr_Hate
UK, 14 mths

My take is that this isn't any real victory to us at all - the bdsm element of the case is irrelevant for this trial. Instead it's about the rights a paper has to publicize someone's private life on the basis that they are high up in essentially a heavily publicized entertainment company. This can possibly be used in other cases where someone's private life is also exposed and exploited for little reason that the sheer scandal factor, but that has to be seen. The BDSM element is only there to ensure the trial gets in every paper. I'm pleased the NOTW lost as it's shitty journalism, although I fear the only difference is that they'll now be a bit craftier with dealing with him in the future.
I do, however, take offence in seeing some people Idolize Max or try to turn him into a BDSM hero. Isn't this the same man who said he deeply regretted both the events captured, and called his desire for BDSM to be his terrible affliction (or something like that). Even taking the family trust issues aside, this kind of press just maintains the thought that what we do is morally incorrect; that it is something to be ashamed about; that it is wrong, and this is something I find repellent. To me, he is no hero for our community, and definitely not someone who'll then fund some of our support networks (which some people have raised the idea of him doing!). His past ideology, which through Occam's Razor we must assume, until he proves otherwise, he is still maintaining, is completely irrelevant really to all of this (Though if anyone claims that he is a great man or he completely represents us, then this does become one of the plethora of issues that will have to be raised).

24 Jul 08, 3:37 PM
mr_Hate
UK, 14 mths

The other thing to remember is that even if someone is into BDSM, it doesn't mean that:
They are a good person
They have similar thoughts, theories, political or philisophical views to you
They are intelligent or otherwise
They are better lovers
You will get on with them

etc etc. It does seem that people keep forgetting that at times (This does also apply to people in all social groups).
Edited 24 Jul 08, 3:38 PM by mr_Hate

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