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Self-discipline vs. external control (34)

This post is on the Other BDSM web board.

rose_in_chains wrote:
Of course external coaching and support systems are really great tools to help achieve goals; the elite, whether sports, or other areas, have coaches. The NHS has even got on board with the concept and provides support for giving up smoking.

I maybe got the emphasis wrong in what I was trying to say - things external to me can help provide motivation, and those things might include D/s in terms of reward (being a 'good' girl) or punishment defined in case of failure. But, it's when I start to RELY on those punishment/reward structures to provide my motivation for change or self-improvement, or crave them when they are not there, that's when I know there's a problem in myself. I need to be self-reliant in the case of those support systems not being in place; yes, friends can support, a D/s structure (if I had it, and in some senses I do) can support, but they can't be all there is. When it comes down to it, all there is, is me... And that's a good thing. Because when I have successes and achievements, I want to know it's MY success, MY achievement. I'm self-centred like that.

(Although recently I haven't hesitated in pointing out to a certain person the role he played in helping me get to where I am now; but I also know that without my own effort and determination, whatever role he tried to play would have been worthless).

But I think we are saying a similar thing; to quote you again, which is also the point I am trying to make:

subette wrote:

it is still you who has to do the thing at the end of the day.

Yep - you're right - I think we're coming at it from a similar angle. Your support systems, whatever they be, can be immensely important, but the most important thing they can do is make you a stronger person so that you are more able to tackle the things you want to.

It's not self-centred and it doesn't make anyone less subby - it's just a realistic approach to make a sustainable change. Any good dom/me who wants to support a sub in making those changes will see that it is much more about 'enabling' the sub than 'making' them change.

Subette

I want to reconcile the violence in your heart. I want to recognize your beauty is not just a mask. - Muse, Undisclosed desires

18 Mar 10, 10:08 AM
Outlier
UK(W), 2 yrs

subette wrote:

Yep - you're right - I think we're coming at it from a similar angle. Your support systems, whatever they be, can be immensely important, but the most important thing they can do is make you a stronger person so that you are more able to tackle the things you want to.

It's not self-centred and it doesn't make anyone less subby - it's just a realistic approach to make a sustainable change. Any good dom/me who wants to support a sub in making those changes will see that it is much more about 'enabling' the sub than 'making' them change.

Subette

I completely agree.

"I am from nowhere and everywhere" Karl Lagerfeld

19 Mar 10, 3:42 PM
hollykins
UK(BH), 3 yrs

I am inclined to think that most of us have huge amounts of self-discipline for those things which really, honestly matter to us, and less self-discipline ( in varying degrees) for that which, if we are totally honest with ourselves, is not so important. My suggestion to the op is that time keeping in general is not fundamentally that important to you, although you clearly recognise its ramifications and thus feel that it ought to be and that consequently in order to achieve good time keeping you think you need external help with it. I wonder, though whether your time keeping would be better if it was important enough to you eg. a loved one's funeral or the need to get to see a family member in hospital before its 'too late' ? Sorry to use such drastic examples, but what I'm getting at is that as you are aware of the negatives of poor time keeping, it seems that you might continue with it simply because it hasn't yet been important enough to you to be on time ? As to whether external control works where self-discipline fails, well it is a matter of what an individual wants. If someone WANTS to be controlled and disciplined by an external force then they will naturally exhibit behaviour which ensures this happens as much as possible. Thats all fine of course if the one expected to dole out the control and discipline is happy to indulge this form of topping from the bottom. If it is an agreed part of a D/s relationship ie. micro-management, then again its cool if both parties want that. The thing I have a problem with is this need being 'dressed up' as something which cannot be helped rather than just being openly stated as a want or need. When it comes to the physical discipline, then if someone GENUINELY wants external help to eradicate a specific undesirable behaviour then the discipline/punishment applied should be so memorable that it is a genuine deterrant ie. the sub NEVER wants to experience it again. Only then will it actually have a chance of stopping the behaviour that the sub supposedly wants to permanently stop. Anything less will not permanently stop the behaviour the sub wishes to stop, and thus what should have been effective behaviour modification actually just becomes another 'play' scene. Of course, all this assumes that the sub actually does want to stop an undesirable behaviour and is not just looking for an excuse to be punished and has no intention of actually changing !!

19 Mar 10, 4:34 PM
silver_lotus
UK(CB), 3 yrs

rose_in_chains wrote:
my personal take on it, when I want/wish for someone to give me that external, imposed discipline, that's a cop-out (and I do want that, often). That's when I'm being weak. It's my responsibility to be the best person I can be, not someone else's. It's the Dom's responsibility to communicate what best means for him, mine to decide if that's what I want to be, and then to be it. But I have to do the work. I have to impose the discipline on myself, or I haven't actually achieved anything. Not in my view of my world anyway...

But maybe it's more evidence of me not being a real submissive? I just know that my achievements need to be mine, not someone else's...

Its interesting to see what other folk feel about their successes and perceived failures isn't it?

Whilst I agree it up to each of us to use what we have and make the most use of it, I think we should also agree that using your submissive nature to its full potential is also something to be proud of and pleased you can offer, and not seen as either negative nor weak. It is the other side to being dominant, it is the yin to their yang, the plus to their minus, the up to their down, or left to their right. Without your abilities it would not be possible.

And we all value and need various forms of support at various times, from major practical stuff to subtle confirmation and approval or recognition, and if we didn't have it then life would be extremely lonely and folk would feel isolated.

So a balance between self motivation and external support in some or various forms is a very valuable part of life with other people I think.

'To Oblivion, and beyond!'