UK ISPs to track websites visited (67)

This post is on the BDSM Activism web board.

21 Feb 08, 2:23 PM
Tanos
UK(M), 11 yrs
Y!

SirStrict43 wrote:

Tanos wrote:

SirStrict43 wrote:

mister_toad_uk wrote:
In the meantime, you can always use an anonymiser (just google for anonymous proxy), there are even some free ones. It's not a permanent solution as ISPs are aware of them and might block them, though.
Free anonymisers are a fallacy. It is similar to proxy servers, where they do the job but the provider retains download records.
It would defeat the ISP's attempts to collect your viewing history though, especially if you access the proxy via HTTPS or some other secure channel. "Everything is known by someone, but we'd like no one to know everything."

Using an anonymiser, such as secure tunnelling with encryption can be got round in the UK by the law that requires passwords to be surrendered.
This approach wouldn't work, since it's a defence in the RIPA law to prove that you were no longer in possession of the key when they asked for it. You're not in possession of the SSL session keys after the session is discarded, and it's trivial to prove that your web browser works that way (they all do.)
If you use encrypted traffic it could be argued in law that you have a reason for it i.e. online banking. If you are logged on to a dodgy server that previously has held , shall we say less than honourable content as many news servers do it would not be unreasonable to question what you were looking for.
Trivially, encrypting the traffic means they do not know what "dodgy server" you are talking to.
Regards,
Tanos
www.tanos.org.uk

21 Feb 08, 3:42 PM
kisses_for_me
UK(IP), 2 yrs
Y!
Even better, use a secure link to a terminal session elsewhere in the world
Then there is nothing at all on the local computer
I think I saw a puddytat

21 Feb 08, 10:10 PM
SirOpenSource
UK(E), 3 yrs
Y!
Tanos wrote:

SirStrict43 wrote:

Tanos wrote:

SirStrict43 wrote:

mister_toad_uk wrote:
In the meantime, you can always use an anonymiser (just google for anonymous proxy), there are even some free ones. It's not a permanent solution as ISPs are aware of them and might block them, though.
Free anonymisers are a fallacy. It is similar to proxy servers, where they do the job but the provider retains download records.
It would defeat the ISP's attempts to collect your viewing history though, especially if you access the proxy via HTTPS or some other secure channel. "Everything is known by someone, but we'd like no one to know everything."

Using an anonymiser, such as secure tunnelling with encryption can be got round in the UK by the law that requires passwords to be surrendered.
This approach wouldn't work, since it's a defence in the RIPA law to prove that you were no longer in possession of the key when they asked for it. You're not in possession of the SSL session keys after the session is discarded, and it's trivial to prove that your web browser works that way (they all do.)
If you use encrypted traffic it could be argued in law that you have a reason for it i.e. online banking. If you are logged on to a dodgy server that previously has held , shall we say less than honourable content as many news servers do it would not be unreasonable to question what you were looking for.
Trivially, encrypting the traffic means they do not know what "dodgy server" you are talking to.
Regards,
Tanos

technically you are correct but I'm sure neither of us can be bothered splitting hairs eh ?
SS
The blues is not about feeling good, it's about making others feel miserable and earning money while you're at it (Bleeding Gums Murphy-The Simpsons)
www.Londonmunch.co.uk
http://wintolin.org - for the Windows user who wants a change

21 Feb 08, 11:59 PM
mroberts
UK, 2 yrs

slutboy33 wrote:
Well i always thought they tracked were you went what you did on the net.
Just quickly, define "they"

slutboy33 wrote:
i know my friend got website and if you go on it you accept prgrams without you knowing which track your internet usage. He done this and shown me what websites i been on for the month and who i sent to emails to.
This is illegal under the computer misuse act and not all that difficult to protect against, education is the key to safe internet usage.

slutboy33 wrote:
But he also said it alot data to trawl through to look at, but if there artifical intelligence and computer alogrithams am sure this could be overcome to highlight intresting places you have visited depending on what you yourself are intrested in i,e marketuing companies want no what commercail sites you visisted and what you purchased then they traget your email and pop ups.
This is probably true but very few marketing companies would want to be involved in something so highly illegal and very few big corporations would want their advertising money heading that way either.

slutboy33 wrote:
but hey i bet the americnas wish they could pull the plug on the internet there own invention to protect communication systems under a nuclear war. But now it to late the internet is econmic wonder that allows the eveloution of bussines to grow faster than ever transaction and communication of bussiness so much faster and revenue of the .com boom is still continues, and research is now shared world wide new ideas are communicated faster allowing the evolution of science the collabration of data findings allows for growth in uderstanding and new ideas good or bad..
Actually, since the Americans control 9 of the 11 (I think this is right but im ready to be corrected) root DNS servers and also have oversight of ICANN, the Americans are the one nation in the world who could shut down the internet - not that they ever would, but it's entirely in their hands.

slutboy33 wrote:
But it also used to spread fear and hatred and allows organsitions to plan and implement attacks so much quicker and as they think anomousyly. Whats the big panic over BDSM you still have ya munchs and be able to practice what you want, it hink the law is passed for good reason.
Looks like a troll, sounds like a troll..... actually if anything the internet has made data collection for the intelligence services easy - the vast majority of people dont understand encryption well enough to protect the communications they make on a day to day basis.

slutboy33 wrote:
the internet is the biggest spy in your house with out you knowing it, it feeds into millons homes and work places most have desginated ID and then also passord and id which leads to you the user lol.
Well I think thats not true, the biggest thing that a majority of people dont realise is your mobile phone microphone can be accessed remotely ... That's 60 million bugs, on people 99% of the time, available to anyone with access (the security services typically) - the internet, with proper encryption and preventative measures is far more secure.

slutboy33 wrote:
Soon you have ID cards which is your personal bio identity which be eventually linked to everything. With implementation of electronics they will know what you are buying, were You been you may shrug this off. But you been to supermarket were the checkout is fully automated, well just think of a system that uses eye recognition to identify who you are linked to main database which has your ID card details and allows all the food you have bought to be logged. And then also it will show were you been to buy the food, sounds good.
Bearing in mind that we exist in a capitalist country, where's the incentive for taking things this far?

slutboy33 wrote:
But imagine that this country had to become self sufficent on food well the population defiently outsrips the demand for food hence the need for ratining of food and what else may you ask petrol,cloths, nhs,dental.
Why would this be the case? We're moving more towards a global economy, not self sufficiency - the idea that we would close our doors on all imports and exports is ridiculous.

slutboy33 wrote:
I would be worried about your civil liberties and your welfare first and my advice is dont accept the ID card as your own personal prison with out any walls and all the temptation.
What temptation? I won't accept ID cards but it's not because I regard them as a prison, not even because I fear the repercussions but purely because I'll have to pay for them.

22 Feb 08, 12:05 AM
Tanos
UK(M), 11 yrs
Y!

SirStrict43 wrote:

Tanos wrote:

SirStrict43 wrote:

Tanos wrote:

SirStrict43 wrote:

mister_toad_uk wrote:
In the meantime, you can always use an anonymiser (just google for anonymous proxy), there are even some free ones. It's not a permanent solution as ISPs are aware of them and might block them, though.
Free anonymisers are a fallacy. It is similar to proxy servers, where they do the job but the provider retains download records.
It would defeat the ISP's attempts to collect your viewing history though, especially if you access the proxy via HTTPS or some other secure channel. "Everything is known by someone, but we'd like no one to know everything."

Using an anonymiser, such as secure tunnelling with encryption can be got round in the UK by the law that requires passwords to be surrendered.
This approach wouldn't work, since it's a defence in the RIPA law to prove that you were no longer in possession of the key when they asked for it. You're not in possession of the SSL session keys after the session is discarded, and it's trivial to prove that your web browser works that way (they all do.)
If you use encrypted traffic it could be argued in law that you have a reason for it i.e. online banking. If you are logged on to a dodgy server that previously has held , shall we say less than honourable content as many news servers do it would not be unreasonable to question what you were looking for.
Trivially, encrypting the traffic means they do not know what "dodgy server" you are talking to.
Regards,
Tanos

technically you are correct but I'm sure neither of us can be bothered splitting hairs eh ?
I think your post was so completely misinformed that I was splitting the whole woolly mammoth rather than just one of its hairs
Tanos
www.tanos.org.uk

22 Feb 08, 11:35 AM
kisses_for_me
UK(IP), 2 yrs
Y!

mroberts wrote:

slutboy33 wrote:
but hey i bet the americnas wish they could pull the plug on the internet there own invention to protect communication systems under a nuclear war. But now it to late the internet is econmic wonder that allows the eveloution of bussines to grow faster than ever transaction and communication of bussiness so much faster and revenue of the .com boom is still continues, and research is now shared world wide new ideas are communicated faster allowing the evolution of science the collabration of data findings allows for growth in uderstanding and new ideas good or bad..
Actually, since the Americans control 9 of the 11 (I think this is right but im ready to be corrected) root DNS servers and also have oversight of ICANN, the Americans are the one nation in the world who could shut down the internet - not that they ever would, but it's entirely in their hands.
Well as the internet was designed way back in mists of time to be self repairing in time of failure, shutting down those root servers would not have much in the way of real effect, just lots of time-outs while the rest of the world caught up. It would be practically impossible for the US to even just segregate their portion of the net from the rest of the world without interrupting other communications flow

slutboy33 wrote:
Soon you have ID cards which is your personal bio identity which be eventually linked to everything. With implementation of electronics they will know what you are buying, were You been you may shrug this off. But you been to supermarket were the checkout is fully automated, well just think of a system that uses eye recognition to identify who you are linked to main database which has your ID card details and allows all the food you have bought to be logged. And then also it will show were you been to buy the food, sounds good.
Bearing in mind that we exist in a capitalist country, where's the incentive for taking things this far?
Ask Tesco, or Sainsburys, both have loyalty card schemes that track all you purchases, linked to a unique person, ie you. Do you think such corporations would datamine in this way if there was not a profit in it somewhere along the line.
Coming soon, the ability for a Tesco van to drive past your house, and know that you didnt buy the sugar in your cupboard from them. And with such measures (RFID), the death of obvious datamining in the form of loyalty cards, and onto something much more hidden.
Try http://www.nocards.org/ and find out just how much reason there can be for knowing how many jaffa caes you buy each month
I think I saw a puddytat

22 Feb 08, 11:07 PM
steve1966
UK(GL), 3 yrs

cheekymonkee wrote:
Perhaps the anti-conspiracy theorists can explain the presence of thermite at the WTC ground zero site - a substance ONLY ever found where explosives have been used. When buildings have been blown up by terrorists, thermite is what CSI type people look for and use as evidence in court and yet for some bizarre reason the official 911 commission completely ignores this issue.
It just so happens that both WTC building were designed specifically to withstand a direct impact from large aircraft - and indeed insurance for this happening was taken out 2 months beforehand.
1) Thermite is a pyrotechnic composition of aluminium powder and a metal oxide which produces an aluminothermic reaction known as a thermite reaction. It is not an explosive, but can create short bursts of extremely high temperatures focused on a very small target for a short period of time. Often used for welding train rail. I've made it at home and my chemistry teacher used to make it in the fire bucket at school.. so was he a terrorist? Am I ? If you are going to make statements about Forensic Science I suggest you talk to someone who knows what the fuck they are talking about instead of spouting crap.
2) Err - yes they were designed to survive a plane impact but when they were designed no planes existed of the size that hit them.
Anyway back to Tanos's post. The internet is a major problem for governments because they can't control it and people will work round restrictions that are put in place (look at encrypted torrents for one example).
All the proposed ideas assume ISP have unlimited resources. One of the big ISPs had a "three strikes out" deal with the Record Companies over filesharing but it fell apart because the record companies refused to fund the huge cost of tracking and chasing the "offenders"
The internet is changing - its something that the world has never seen before. Governments can't cope with it because its totally international. Businesses can't cope with it because they can't control it... It doesn't conform to any previous business model and I don't think anyone really knows how things will pan out in the future.
tasha

Edited 22 Feb 08, 11:13 PM by steve1966

29 Feb 08, 11:46 PM
MisterBear
UK(WA), 5 yrs

Here's some information on how they plan to intercept your details.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_do...
This is the worrying part.
"A copy of the page contents is sent to the Profiler,"
It suggests that any non-encrypted page you visit will be copied to their system. So it means that any memos you send on IC will be copied to their system and if you post any details that can identify you, like your name and address to someone who is coming to visit, then that will reveal your entire browsing history to whoever has access to Phorm system, thus removing any anonymity you might have had.
And here's a protest site.
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/
Oh and here's a round up of all The Registers stories on this Phorm thing.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_ro...
The Babylon project was our last best hope for peace. It failed.
In the year of the Shadow war it became something greater. Our last best hope for victory.
The year is 2260. The place, Babylon 5.
Edited 29 Feb 08, 11:47 PM by MisterBear

1 Mar 08, 12:04 AM
rodm99
UK(CB), 4 yrs

bedsguy40 wrote:
No, World Socialism is almost upon us, they Know we are onto them and they are desperate to shut down the Net or start closing down people on a variety of charges.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-dPhymHlcwU EU Referendum Revolt
The EU Is a Gulag.
Our Parliament is a charade, bought and paid for by the Global Elite.
9/11 and 7/7 were Inside Jobs, check this out on the Net the Media is ALL part of the cover up.
Watch the Building fall, Never before in History has a Steel structured Building collapsed due to fire because the Fire is not hot enough to Melt the steel to make it collapse. Yet on 9/11 THREE Steel Buildings collapse, at free fall speed, neatly into their Own FootPrints http://www.911blogger.com/node/6054
Larry Silverstein (who bought the Buildings 6 weeks before 9/11 AND Insured them against terrorist attacks [How lucky was that] ) saus the Buildings were Pulled. Now the Word 'Pull' is a demolition term which means, Demolish. A building of this size would take literally weeks to prepare for demolition, this begs the question then, When was it prepared. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC0qGJ3M7KI
The BBC and Fox News Reported the collapse of Building 7 20 Minutes before it did, in fact on her report. the building can be seen behind her. When Questioned Over this, the BBC say they have now LOST their 9/11 tapes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/pa...
Many thousands of Scholars Question this, Jet fuel Does NOT Burn hot enough to Melt steel. http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/WhyIndeedDidt...
German Secret service and the Ex Italian PM says that Intellligence agencies know 9/11 was an Inside Job http://www.prisonplanet.com/021104vonbuelow.html http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december200... Japanese Parliament questions 9/11 and calls the official version of events a 'FairyStory' http://www.911blogger.com/node/13392 http://www.911blogger.com/node/13340 http://www.911blogger.com/node/12215

I tell you it's the Jews and the Freemasons, assisted by those little green chaps from Mars!!! I know because every time I switch on my electric kettle, they speak to me through it (it's a green kettle) and tell me that it's so...
'Twosies beats onesies, but nothing beats three...'
Edited 2 Mar 08, 2:38 PM by rodm99

1 Mar 08, 12:18 AM
Heaven_Forbid
UK, 19 mths
From what I have read so far, (and I admit I have only just started reading up), there are a number of issues regarding monitoring
(1) only a few ISP's so far have signed up to this and their stance is likely to be challenged in the courts as this would appear to contravene many UK privacy and interception laws. There are also plenty of ISP's who have taken a public (marketing) stance not to do this (vote with your feet, but watch out for casual "change in terms and conditions" emails in the near future).
(2) the mechanisms appear to be based around three main vectors
(a) internet cookies (there are supposedly "opt out" cookies you can put in place although that is akin to politely asking the buggers to please go away if they dont mind...)
(b) DNS queries (bypass your ISP's DNS servers and query the root DNS servers directly), now in place in my home but unlikely to help for long given point c below)
(c) ISP traffic logs. There is no such thing as anonymity on the Internet. Even if you block the cookies, work around the DNS servers and keep swopping providors, if the gov'ment want to see where you go, then they will just go to your ISP (whoever they are) and tell them to hand over the logs. Simple as that.
Nothing has really changed here, it is just that the serious capitalists now want to remove Tanos's adverts at the top of the page and replace them with knitting weekly advertisements or wherever you went last week....
Play the game, everybody play the game of love....

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