government sword ban (93)

Of course it won't hurt ... much ... now bend over

With respect, you are entirely wrong. You'll find if you check the British crime figures for the last five years that there have been four deaths related to swords (one of which was in fact the police in Hull shooting someone carrying a sword). There have also in that time been around *47* reported incidents related to swords. Compare that with the knife crime figures over five years then tell me this is worth parliamentary time when there are serious issues a Home Office Minister could be tackling instead, for the good of far more people.

Also, 'there is a clear difference between the real thing... and the cheap imitation ones'. Really? You think? I use Western and Oriental swords as a martial artist and without being close up, it just isn't obvious. And by the way, the definition as it stood when the proposals first came out meant that it had to be a sword certified as being made by a Japanese Master before it would be accepted as genuine, rather than an 'imitation' sword. It means the high end blades worth around £1k made by Paul Chen in Hanwei, one of the big sword makers currently working, would be considered as 'imitation'. The dimensions of a 'genuine' and a 'cheap' blade, hilt etc are similar at a distance and how exactly is PC Plod supposed to know that and it's poor old Plod who's going to be making the law work or not. Come to that, as I've said before in discussions on this topic, how is PC Plod supposed to know a katana from a karabela (a Polish sabre - which can look similar to a katana but is not covered under the proposed ban) at a distance either???

The proposals when they first came to light were ill thought-out and I for one sincerely hope that dear Mr Coker becomes ensconced in some other new legislation that makes the public at large far happier and puts his smiling face all over news programmes in a way he's happy with. Perhaps it will get him off our backs on this issue.

Amber Martial artist (Oriental and Western), sword collector and re-enactor

Anybody on the fetish scene that indulges in knife/blade play of any kind, would be stupid to walk down the street with a sword or knife on open display. If the blade, whatever kind it is, is securely locked away in a case or box of some kind then you are unlikey to get plod taking an interest in you. Do blade players want to draw public attention to thier private interests? Especially if they are engaged in play with a person outside of thier marriage? I think NOT. So there does appear to be a certain amount of hysteria and paranoia about this issue.

I make very little if anything out of making and supplying the blades that I do. They take so long to design and make that there is no real profit. However, I love what I do and am very proud of some of the items I have made. All of the blades I have created have been made as unique one off items for people that I have met on the fetish scene. All of them are grown up, sensible and responsible adults. I do NOT make and supply them to just anybody.

The crunch comes when the plod/CPS say that as I have recieved money for making the bladed item, I am a trader. So no matter how carefull I am about screening my clients, I am still breaking the law. I will lose the chance to legally enjoy creating a blade for someone that I know.

The offensive weapons act is actually strong enough on its own without any further amendments. I worked on club doors for fourteen years and was stabbed several times. Twice with modelling knives, twice with kitchen knives, once with a meat skewer, once with a buck knife, once with a broken mirror and once with a cut throat razor. Not once with a Katana. I used to teach women self defence and actively encouraged women NOT to carry any blades or scissors with them. Instead I showed them how to use a tightly rolled magazine to disable an attacker. Amazing how much damage you can do to an attacker with a sharpened pencil or a cheap biro, bunch of keys etc.

The sword trading bann is another example of our elected representatives not doing the job we pay them to do. That twat Coker is once again taking money under false pretences, but thats what we have all come to expect from this corrupt and morally bakrupt bunch of fuckwit assholes currently in power.

I have a small stock of blade blanks for those people that want me to design and make blades for them. I will continue to do what I do despite the bann. As I said before "Fuck it".

Now how long do you want this blade?

Master Chopper.

(Edited to amend mistakes made during late night typing!) Insomnia is a pain in the arse.

WWW.SPANKINGTOOLS.COM
NOW UPDATED WITH MANY NEW ITEMS IN THE CATALOGUE.

Edited 8 Feb 08, 8:45 AM by Master_Chopper

I'll bow to your area of expertise, if you'll bow to mine.

I accept that I know nothing about samurai swords and whether it is easy to tell the difference between imitation ones and the ones that serious practitioners use. I think on the other thread there were people who claimed to be martial artists who said there was a clear difference, but I have no idea.

However I do know that there have been a lot of incidents involving samurai swords. Not as many as other types of knives, certainly, but the point is that there is no legitimate use for the imitation swords (assuming the distinction can be made!) whereas the knives used in most offences have legitimate uses. I have personally seen dozens of cases where people have used them as handy weapons in disputes that would not have involved any weapons at all had the swords not been hanging there. I know there is a specific prolem with use, or misuse, of these swords and believe that some attempt to restrict their general sale to any thug who walks in off the street is justified.

Also this proposed change in the law is a very minor bit of regulation. It doesn't need any parliamentary time, and it is a restriction only on trading in these particular types of swords. It has been hyped up as a 'ban' when it is nothing of the sort. The average policeman will not have to know the difference because this law will make no difference whatsoever to the law on anyone having swords on the street or in the house. It will apply only to trade and will therefore be enforced by specialists.

The British crime figures show a different picture. No legitimate use for imitation swords - hmmmmmmmm. I can't agree with you there when what's classed as 'imitation' includes anything that's not made by a certified Japanese Master - such as the Paul Chen blades I mentioned above. Oriental martial artists might disagree with you therefore on the 'legitimate use' front.

I still can't see this as anything more than a sensationalist waste of time and effort likely to adversely affect those who do use swords responsibly.

Amber

Hanging one on your wall is a legitimate use in a free country.

Tanos

www.tanos.org.uk

True, but that is relatively minimal compared to having a practical use as a stanley knife or kitchen knife would do. You could say hanging it on your wall as decoration is a legitimate use for anything, a sub-machinegun for instance.

In an ideal world we wouldn't need any restrictions on anything, but we don't live in an ideal world. There are people who take advantage of the freedoms we have to hurt other people, so we have to decide where the balance lies between restrictions and freedoms. My view based on my experience of the use of these swords is that the useful purpose they serve is minimal and the minor loss of liberty involved in this legislation (a restriction on trade only don't forget) compared to the risk of being injured by one in the hands of an idiot with a bad temper is a price worth paying. Fortunately most of us involved in this argument don't have to live near those sorts of people, but there are plenty of vulnerable people who do. Crime statistics may well not have recorded a great deal of sword crime, but I promise you if you ask anyone who is involved in criminal justice on a day to day basis there is a pretty good chance they will have come across plenty of incidences of imitation swords supposedly for decorative purposes being used as weapons.

All this, I accept, is subject to it being possible to easily define 'imitation Samurai sword'. On that I claim no expertise at all. I believe someone else on an earlier thread said it was an easy distinction to make, and claimed some expertise - Amber obviously doesn't feel that way, and I really am in no position to make a judgement on that.

Or a commemorative plate, or a painting, or anything.

The point is this government takes it as read that if ministers, personally, do not see something as a legitimate pursuit, then there's no harm in banning it. Whether that's fox hunting, samurai swords, smoking in public, SM pornography, criticism of religions, money-for-sex, or protesting near parliament. (I've deliberately chosen a mixed bag of things I do and don't agree with.)

What they can't see is that their prejudices aren't enough justification: as we've seen with SM pornography, their attitude is that people shouldn't be doing Spanner-style SM anyway.

My point is that members of a free society can decide for themselves whether activities that don't harm other people are legitimate pursuits.

Whether the danger posed by guns / samurai swords / kitchen knives / cars / drugs / alcohol etc is big enough to warrant a ban of an otherwise legitimate pursuit is a separate question.

Tanos

www.tanos.org.uk

Edited 8 Feb 08, 3:08 PM by Tanos

I agree with you, but I don't think this is a case of it being their prejudices, I am pretty sure that they will have been getting feedback from the police that there have been an increasing number of imitation samurai swords being bought as decorations and then being used as weapons. Hence the move to restrict the sale of them. This does seem to be an issue of the separate question in your last paragraph being addressed, not simply a prejudice against these swords that has come out of nowhere.

This government may have many faults, but it doesn't mean that everything they do is born from those faults!

Edited 8 Feb 08, 3:19 PM by mq1965

Er, didn't you previously say that your experience of the use katanas was non-existant?

International man of mystery