Altering the perception of BDSM (97)

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7 Oct 07, 10:16 PM
skyfox
UK(EH), 22 mths
Having been absent from this thread for a day or two, I see two themes evolving: one, what does it mean to be tolerant vs. x-phobic, and two, what does the public think of us and (subquestion 2-a) should we do anything about it and (subquestion 2-b) what should we do about it.
These are all valid questions and are all very big questions. (Quite possibly deserving of their own threads.)
For the first, I think the point was made quite well by mtii (I may be taking liberties here) that BDSM is so broad that defining an exact opposite is near impossible, making any sort of x-phobic very vague and undefined. As far as acceptance of different kinks/practices, I think the point was made several times that acceptance and tolerance are two different things. You don't have to like something or believe it to tolerate it. I think this point was made best in South Park.
As for the "proper" term to define bdsm-phobia, I think it was Indelible Marker who said that it is not the dictionary that defines terms' meanings, but instead society and their usage, so it is possible to reclaim ANY term for ou purposes. However, what our purposes are is in the next question.
As far as what he public thinks of us, ok, sure maybe not everyone cares, but I personally don't like being the subject of mockery in the media. And the media just magnifies public perceptions, either increasing the ones that already exist or encouraging fringe thoughts. And as I think Indelible Marker said, I agree that most of the public considers us (at the very least) laughable. And the point about only femdoms being acceptable (in a sexy object sort of way) is quite offending. Yeah, they *think* they know what BDSM means... but let's be honest, do they recognize the same variety that mtii does? Even that it exists? No.
As to question 2-a, should we do something about what the public thinks about us, I say yes. For two reasons, one, Spanner, and two, because I don't want to be laughed at or thought silly. Is what the public/media thinks offensive? Could be, if we're sensitive enough. Me, I am. That and it'd be nice not to have to worry about finding club venues. So maybe mtii doesn't care what others think of her, but I do.
As for what we can do about it, ok, so mtii does raise an interesting question about the devestating effects of "education", but all they really need to know is that whatever we do, 1) they don't need to care because it's safe and acceptable and 2) they shouldn't disrespect us or present stereotypes (which are bound to exist anyway, which is kinda a fruitless goal). It would be nice not to be associated with peadophiles, for example.
However, as a direct question, what are the downsides of increased awareness of BDSM and other fetishes? Sure maybe we'll be conceived of as "annoying and whiny", but is that really such a bad thing?

7 Oct 07, 10:17 PM
z12345
16 mths No. It. Didn't.
Other factors were responsible.
And on your point of a gay leaflet including bdsm practices... isn't that proof that bdsm IS mainstream and accepted? In your determination to be persecuted and a victim, you've selectively edited what that leaflet means.
Instead of "oh, wow, what I do is actually boring and normal, even leaflets at fresher's fairs include it" you saw it as "no one is complaining because it's a gay leaflet and the gays have a better emancipation team"

7 Oct 07, 10:18 PM
MarwoodBramwell
UK(CB), 3 yrs
Really want to go through the same battles and roller-coaster that Feminism and homophobia went through?
Does the public care enough? Is there really that degree of prejudice? Is anything in our day to day lives being restrained by the status quo?
What is this great advance or step forward that you want to see? A sub on the front bench in the Commons? Freedom to take your sub for a walk on a chain through Hyde Park?
Can someone show me where this battle line is?

7 Oct 07, 10:19 PM
z12345
16 mths Nice reply skyfox! I'm going to have a think and get back to you. We do need other threads, I think though.

7 Oct 07, 10:30 PM
IndelibleMarker
UK(N), 3 yrs

mtii2007 wrote:
No. It. Didn't.
Other factors were responsible.
And on your point of a gay leaflet including bdsm practices... isn't that proof that bdsm IS mainstream and accepted? In your determination to be persecuted and a victim, you've selectively edited what that leaflet means.
Instead of "oh, wow, what I do is actually boring and normal, even leaflets at fresher's fairs include it" you saw it as "no one is complaining because it's a gay leaflet and the gays have a better emancipation team"
Why is educating those who make decitions which effect us and don't have a clear understanding dangerous?
The word feminism itself has altered peoples perception of their cause and many average joe voters don't equate feminism with equality. The phrase homophobia also helped alter peoples perception in a similar way. Other factors were certainly responsible and they worked very well alongside the phrase.
In terms of the gay leaflet the point was the reason why gay leaflets have it. The reason is because the "powers that be" worry that if they try and censor homosexual education then they will be accused of homophobia.
(Edited to add: I'm quite sure a BDSM only educational leaflet would not have been so well accepted by the administration. It reminds me of something I heard recently that when scientists want a grant to study something, all they need to do is say that they are studying it in relation to global warming and get a huge government grant to do it! Not to give it to them would make the government appear not care about about the environment.)
I'm not making myself into a victim at all and I was pleased to see it there and it made me feel that perception of BDSM is changing, but it also made me question why it was so openly and actively changing in the gay sector but not elsewhere.
At Imperial the students are not allowed to, and can face disciplinary action for downloading pornography in their private accomodation, that seems quite at odds to handing out fliers at their fayre about fisting and nipple clamps!
Tuam matrem feci,
Patrick
IndelibleMarker
Edited 7 Oct 07, 10:35 PM by IndelibleMarker

7 Oct 07, 10:37 PM
z12345
16 mths I already said. The people that make the decisions are already "educated".
And you're not talking about education, you're talking about making people feel guilt or shame for saying anything kink-negative. (But only the kink-negative things you would disagree with.)
I'll repeat, your interpretation of the gay leaflet at the fresher fair is subjective and coloured by your experiences, and as such, probably wrong.

7 Oct 07, 10:39 PM
doulos
UK, 3 yrs

Poppy_Blue wrote:

IndelibleMarker wrote:

Poppy_Blue wrote:
there are many people within bdsm who have problems with accepting fellow bdsmers kinks. i contributed to a thread the other day on scat where a few ic members referred to this activity as revolting, stomach turning etc. that's just amongst our own.
A gay man who doesn't like the idea of giving oral sex won't get called a homophobe.
Words ending in phobia can be used as a technique to encourage people who don't really want to listen, to sit down, take notice and be educated.
the comments i mentioned didn't say "i don't like" they used words such as "revolting" and "stomach churning". it's possible that any scat lover reading the comments were left feeling bad about themselves. i know for a fact that one scat lover was afraid to post his views because of the reaction. as i've said before, that's just amongst our own. if the gay man said he found giving oral sex revolting and stomach churning then to some degree he would be a homophobe and if the straight man made the same comments then would definitely be labeled a homophobe.
i guess i'm trying to say it's not a bdsm community against the world thing, but a need for us all as individuals to be more tolerant of our fellow human beings.

Too true.
In the end, reforming society is impossible but reforming ourselves is within our grasp.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken
Edited 7 Oct 07, 10:40 PM by doulos

7 Oct 07, 10:39 PM
MarwoodBramwell
UK(CB), 3 yrs

skyfox wrote:
As far as what he public thinks of us, ok, sure maybe not everyone cares, but I personally don't like being the subject of mockery in the media. And the media just magnifies public perceptions, either increasing the ones that already exist or encouraging fringe thoughts. And as I think Indelible Marker said, I agree that most of the public considers us (at the very least) laughable. And the point about only femdoms being acceptable (in a sexy object sort of way) is quite offending. Yeah, they *think* they know what BDSM means... but let's be honest, do they recognize the same variety that mtii does? Even that it exists? No.
However, as a direct question, what are the downsides of increased awareness of BDSM and other fetishes? Sure maybe we'll be conceived of as "annoying and whiny", but is that really such a bad thing?
Is the mockery really that bad? I mean really seriously painful? And for all the progress that you could make do you really think you can dismantle a stereotype, and one that I assume is as far from the reality of who you are as most stereotypes are. Do you deep down identify with image the jokes and mocking conjures?
As for the femdom being the "acceptable face" of BDSM, again what is the aspect you are offended by? Is it sexist, or objectification even, for the PVC-clad, whip holding woman in thigh high boots to be the image most commonly brought to the fore? Well no more sexist or demeaning than most of the media, and I would start a war with the media elsewhere than the way BDSM is shown.
And I say again, they really don't *think* about BDSM very much at all.
And you final point, that what is so bad about "annoying and whiny"? Is bad publicity better than none at all? What I would remember is that once you start a form of awareness raising it can't be put back in the box.
Edited 7 Oct 07, 10:50 PM by MarwoodBramwell

7 Oct 07, 10:43 PM
harry_lon
UK, 3 yrs

mtii2007 wrote:
The kinks encompassed are far far too broad. Vanilla people might accept certain aspects but it's unfair to expect them to accept them all when "we" can't even.

Having waded my way through the whole of this thread, this is the statement I agree with most.
I don't want to be lumped in indiscriminately with any group in order to be tolerated: I just want a revival of that once traditional British value of minding your own damn business; a recognition that what I get up to in the privacy of my own house or in the company of like minded people is nobody's business but my own, whether it's vanilla, gay or BDSM.
I loathe the mob mentality of trump-card words that are deliberately intended to inhibit rational discussion of important issues, whether it's 'paedophile', 'racist', 'homophobe', or a BDSM related one. They are symptomatic of the antithetis of an informed and thinking society.
The argument about the freedom to practice BDSM is just one small aspect of the debate (which is far too faintly heard) concerning the extent of the state's powers to restrict our natural liberties and defending one small corner with a buzz word is akin to impedeing a steamroller with toothpicks.
When homosexuality was de-criminalised it was reflecting a view already widespread in society that there was something fundamentally wrong with imprisoning people for private activities. If we return the debate to that sort of level, our freedoms will flow naturally.
I'll never regret this, ...although I may rue and lament it

7 Oct 07, 10:44 PM
doulos
UK, 3 yrs

harry_lon wrote:

mtii2007 wrote:
The kinks encompassed are far far too broad. Vanilla people might accept certain aspects but it's unfair to expect them to accept them all when "we" can't even.

Having waded my way through the whole of this thread, this is the statement I agree with most.
I don't want to be lumped in indiscriminately with any group in order to be tolerated: I just want a revival of that once traditional British value of minding your own damn business; a recognition that what I get up to in the privacy of my own house or in the company of like minded people is nobody's business but my own, whether it's vanilla, gay or BDSM.
I loathe the mob mentality of trump-card words that are deliberately intended to inhibit rational discussion of important issues, whether it's 'paedophile', 'racist', 'homophobe', or a BDSM related one. They are symptomatic of the antithetis of an informed and thinking society.
The argument about the freedom to practice BDSM is just one small aspect of the debate (which is far too faintly heard) concerning the extent of the state's powers to restrict our natural liberties and defending one small corner with a buzz word is akin to impedeing a steamroller with toothpicks.
When homosexuality was de-criminalised it was reflecting a view already widespread in society that there was something fundamentally wrong with imprisoning people for private activities. If we return the debate to that sort of level, our freedoms will flow naturally.
Also true.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken

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