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| mq1965 |
Submission and masochism are not the same thing.
That seems blindingly obvious. Ask most people here and I'm sure they would agree without much thought.
But sometimes I'm not sure the real implications of that are understood, or the difference between them fully appreciated.
There are two particular phenomena that are regular occurrences which seem to me to be explained by a failure to understand the difference.
The first is “do me” male 'subs'. There are regular complaints on the boards from Dommes about male 'subs' who give them long lists of demands about what they want done to them. Advice often given to male subs is to ask not what a Domme can do for you, but what you can do for a Domme, yet very few follow this advice. And the reason is simple – they aren't submissive, they are masochists. They want someone to do things to them, but it is about fulfilling their needs, not about pleasing someone else.
The second, related, phenomena is the regular complaints from female subs that they often have contact with male Doms, and the first thing they get asked is to top them. This results in complaints that these men shouldn't advertise themselves as Doms, and it puts off many female subs. You frequently see female sub's ads stating that they never top, and that they aren't interested in switches, and presumably this is as a result of experiencing the above. My contention, though, would be that these Doms are not submissive, but again may well be masochists.
Here I will make a risky confession. I have masochistic interests. I am more of a sadist, probably a Dom, certainly not submissive, but nonetheless I do understand the pleasure that is gained from pain, and I include humiliation in that. (If I didn't I could never truly indulge my sadistic side.) When I first got involved in the scene I thought of myself as switch, but over time I have come to the conclusion that I don't think that is a fair description. Although from the outside I might look submissive when exercising my masochistic fantasies, the fact is that I still need to be in control – it has to be done my way or it won't work, and the phrase topping from the bottom springs very much to mind. I doubt any genuinely dominant woman would put up with it, and even someone who genuinely switched and wanted to be dominant within a scene probably wouldn't be too happy with it. So I don't put in my profile that I am sub or switch, but nonetheless my ideal sex life would include the occasional opportunity to indulge my masochistic side.
All this leads me to one or two tentative conclusions. Although there are obvious exceptions I think the generalisation that women tend to be submissive and men dominant probably does hold true, despite the apparent surfeit of male subs. I also think men tend much more to the sadistic/masochistic (physical) side of things and women toward the (more cerebral) dominant/submissive side. It's just that many masochistic men tend to express their dominance by trying to control their top so that it is done their way. And they advertise themselves as subs because that is how their desired activities are usually categorised. Hence the reason why despite the apparent over-supply of male subs most dominant women find it so hard to find a good one. It also explains why there is such a big market for pro-dommes – they give masochists the opportunity to explore their desires while still being able to control what happens and ensure it goes as they want it.
What it doesn't lead me to is any easy solutions. Trying to understand fully what you want, and why you want it, both mentally and physically, and to be open and honest about it is probably a good start. I would also advocate female subs being more understanding of male Doms with masochistic desires (do you notice the self-interest here?) Don't think of it as necessarily making them less Dominant and less of a man, look at is as them still being in control and getting you to do what pleases them. It may never work for you, especially if they are more masochist than anything else and want it all the time, but does it really do any harm occasionally to give them a taste of the pleasure you get from your side of things? Look at it as being about physical sensation and not mental submission, and perhaps you can indulge them without it diminishing your view of them as being dominant and in control.
| 4 Oct 07, 11:40 AM skyfox UK(EH), 4 yrs   |
Brilliant. I agree completely. Whether or not that's because I actually agreed with you before this, or simply because your argument was so compelling, Absolutely. I am a masochist who likes to submit. But "sub" has fewer letters than "masochist" and "maso" just doesn't sound right, and I do partake of submission, so I generally use the word "sub". Perhaps we should bring back the terms "top" and "bottom"? They're much less confining and more general. | ||
| 4 Oct 07, 11:51 AM Soul_Alloy UK(PR), 4 yrs |
Certainly thought-provoking - I had a similar discussion not too long ago I agree with you by the way, but still find myself in conflict in trying to analyse these thoughts Once I've figured them out maybe I'll write a blog myself lol Better to be a diamond with a flaw then a pebble with none | ||
| 4 Oct 07, 2:08 PM andmole UK(LA), 5 yrs |
Well written and thought provoking. I need to get clear in my own mind exactly which category, (if any), I fit into. I enjoy pain, up to a limit, (my limits have/are changing), but I also seem to be going out of my way to put someone else in control. So you could say that I'm a bit confused. Or you could tell me to stop being so pathetic, (if I'm lucky!). | ||
| 4 Oct 07, 3:36 PM mq1965 UK(DA), 8 yrs |
Of course I have painted things a little simplisticly - most people are probably a complicated mix of sadist, masochist, Dom and sub in differing proportions, with a few other influences thrown in as well. I still think it is important, though, to try and identify exactly what part of you is driving your desires, and those of your partner, or prospective partner, to help to avoid misunderstanding each other. | ||
| 4 Oct 07, 4:08 PM Qwoin UK(S), 10 yrs |
There have been a number of similar blogs some relating to BDSM acivities some sexual e.g Doms that enjoy anal play Dommes who enjoy sex doggie style (or giving oral sex). Dom and sub are states of mind and nor necessarily linked to giving and receiving. Don't be afraid of dying, be afraid of not living. | ||
| 3 Mar 08, 8:09 PM proccie UK(HP), 5 yrs   |
I am just going to agree with the OP. As I keep saying it's a relationship this thing that we do not a pigeonhole. Who wrote the rules FFS? proccie: masochistic, not very subbie has been known to top but not a Dom. Or something. D/s; it's a relationship, not a pigeon hole. | ||
| 3 Mar 08, 10:55 PM merrynb99 UK(SL), 5 yrs |
I think this explains one aspect of this dimension that has confused me for a while - the sense of "topping to please" and "bottom tops". I have found, when the chemistry is right, that the sense of being Domme is not only all about my pleasure, there is a strange exchange of power and pleasure that is wonderful and strange and confusing, because it becomes like a feedback loop. Who is pleasing whom? Is the sub or masochist, by submitting, gaining more pleasure from one's own pain and humiliation, or from pleasing their top? And is the top gaining more pleasure from seeing the bottom struggle through these humiliation submissive rituals - for the pleasure of the other? Or for their own pleasure? It becomes such an intriguing exchange of power, you can't tell which one is "top" any longer and which one is "bottom". So much of it has to do with chemistry ... No pain, no gain. | ||
| 28 Oct 11, 7:58 PM Visualize 4 yrs £ |
breadcrumb | ||
| 28 Oct 11, 11:23 PM mq1965 UK(DA), 8 yrs |
You've lost me there.... | ||
| 29 Oct 11, 4:13 PM wonderer UK, 5 yrs |
Me too, but it drew my attention to a thought-provoking old thread. I think my example might also strengthen your thesis. I think I'm most fundamentally submissive, especially to women; I like to serve, to please, to be used for the benefit of Another. I'm not much of a masochist; don't crave pain but will happily take some pain for the pleasure of the Other. But, as I've been interacting on the scene, I've also realised how much many masochist women crave pain. And this stimulates my service-oriented side to want to serve them in that way. I think I could very happily be a "service top" (though I've never had the opportunity to try it). Even more interestingly, I can see how some submissive women crave domination, and I can imagine myself helping them out by providing someone with a domination experience, though still conceived by me as service. Of course all of this can get so subtle, convoluted and involved as to be perceived as linguistic legerdemain,and perhaps the descriptions and categorisations are less important than having fun together.
"Wisdom begins in wonder” (Socrates) |
