Confucius, Punishment and A Clockwork Orange (25)

Confucius suggests in his Analects to,

"Lead the people with administrative injunctions and put them in their place with penal law, and they will avoid punishments but will be without a sense of shame. Lead them with excellence and put them in their place through roles and ritual practices, and in addition to developing a sense of shame, they will order themselves harmoniously." (Analects II, 3)

Roughly, Confucius was arguing that punishment (particularly physical punishment) only inspires fear, and it is fear that prohibits 'bad' behaviour. There is no moral development, no one learns. Control is external, enforced by another. Punishment as a form of control is reactive, it reacts to the 'bad' behaviour but it still means that the act, that is the 'bad' behaviour has already occured.

One can argue that Confucius believed that leadership was key, backed up with ritual and role. One is inspired to follow and obey. Control becomes internal, a mental process. 'Bad' behaviour becomes unimaginable and thus control becomes pre-active. 'Bad' behaviour cannot happen.

Now, I was watching A Clockwork Orange last night. Burgess said that a 'clockwork orange' was a person only capable of good or evil,

"...a clockwork toy to be wound up by God or the Devil; or the almighty state." (A Clockwork Orange Resucked)

Alex was incapable of violence after the Ludovico Technique as he feared the nausea. He'd been programmed but he was still immoral because he still had the desire to rape, hurt and injur. In the last chapter of the book (and oddly missing from the film), it is his encounter with the Droog Pete who has rejected 'ultraviolence', that inspires Alex to reform. Alex chooses.

Does punishment work? Do you learn when you're punished?

f x

I solemnly swear I'm up to no good.

So I guess, in this, I'm with Confucious. However I think there is a place for both - particularly in BDSM.

Toak

To predict the behaviour of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence - Friedrich Nietzsche

Overall and on it's own, no. The simple reason why not is because outcomes are too unpredictable. In limited measure though the *threat* of punishment can be functional, and the very fact of the right to punish can have significant psychological effects that make it very valuable.

It's possible, but what you learn may not be what is intended, and probably will not be in a lot of cases relevant to how relationships run. When it does work it tends to be for very simple physical behavior modification rather than anything that addresses feelings, emotions or relationships.

- Chris

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats" -Henry Louis Mencken

Edited 27 Jul 07, 11:19 AM by Backdooruk

Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.

There are other undesirable possibilities as well; the worse would probably be 'learning' an emotional reaction to the punisher that effects the connection between them (at least in D/s relationships where intimacy is important – not all need be).

- Chris

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats" -Henry Louis Mencken

(3)

The Sage rules

By emptying hearts and filling bellies,

By weakening ambitions and strengthening bones;

Leads people

Away from knowing and wanting;

Deters those who know too much

From going too far:

Practices non-action

And the natural order is not disrupted.

~~~

(30)

The most fruitful outcome

Does not depend on force,

But suceeds without arrogance

Without hostility

Without pride

Without resistance

Without violence

~~~

(31)

...

Weapons are ill-omened tools,

Not proper instruments.

When their use can't be avoided

Calm restraint is best.

~taboo~organ~somebody's nutter~for what its worth~compass

as with dogs, punishment is an instant feedback as to the exact source of bad behaviour , but if you put them in with a pack of well trained odgs they learn faster by example - so looks like confucious was right there at least.

deep within, pain is the ultimate pleasure, you just need me to look deep enough - Fiery Fetish Domme

...

Weapons are ill-omened tools,

Not proper instruments.

When their use can't be avoided

Calm restraint is best.

[/quote]

Holding someone down after having taken a valium?

I always learned as a child from being punished - I learned to resent and hate, to be violent, and that powerful people are hypocrites. I have unlearned the first two, but the last lesson is a more universal truth...

I would guess that these lessons were not the ones that I was supposed to learn, so that would suggest that punishment didn't work. I also never learned to fear punishment, but only to respond in kind.

Ta,

SnowdropExplodes

For instance the other day he shut the train door as he was leaping off, nearly trapping the guy behind us in the door. If I'd just said you shouldn't have done that, "you won't be playing on the computer now" he would have learnt nothing beyond that he made me angry. Instead I carefully explained how much he could have hurt the man and that did upset my son more than the actual punishment of not being able to play on the computer. So much so in fact everytime we get off a train now he says 'see Daddy I didn't shut the door!'

Leading by example is always good, and if you do go wrong it's always good to show that you are upset you did wrong as opposed to burying that. Though I still remember my dad's chide 'do as I say not as I do' lol

Incidentally, the quote in my sig is from Confucius

Better to be a diamond with a flaw then a pebble with none

lol, yes thats the one

~taboo~organ~somebody's nutter~for what its worth~compass