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| Purrverse |
I'm not even in London yet and already there's a conversation going on in the UK that I've got loads of experience in- whether an under 35 munch/group is an acceptable type of discrimination. We had this conversation here in San Francisco when I spurred along a new incarnation of the San Francisco TNG... what we laughingly called the Whippersnappers.
I don't think it can be denied that it is discrimination- there are lines being drawn: differences, however small, being examined. However, the first question is... what makes it fundamentally different from a male only or female only event, which sometimes lets trans people in and sometimes doesn't? Aren't the lines between gender blurry? Maybe not sex, as often, anyway, but even that isn't always clear cut. Discrimination doesn't always have malicious intentions. One of the reasons started for a women only party here was because they felt men were inappropriate when they were around, thus making a heterosexually available event less attractive for women who played with women.
Secondly, one of the reasons behind the 35 cutoff is that more people under 35 tend, at least out here, to be still working in college, just starting their career, still dating around, still living in apartments. Over 35, more people have settled into a career, perhaps settled into a family, just more settled in general. This can mean a few things- here, we noticed under 35 year olds tended to want more cheap, frills-free classes and parties, and had more time to show up to them.
Thirdly, here in SF we had a lot of older people who looked down on and were sometimes rude to younger players as not being experienced "enough", whatever that meant. Oftentimes a scene between a couple who were under 35, playing for a few years together, would be interrupted by someone in their late 40s, who would offer unasked for advice... even though the older person was only in the scene for a year or two. A lot of younger players wouldn't come out to play because the older players would be disrespectful or scornful towards them, based on their age alone.
Fourthly, and this was one we struggled with a lot... younger women in particular felt far more comfortable coming out to a younger munch. Whether or not they were ACTUALLY at risk of being chickenhawked/harassed, the fear was there, and their intimidation tended to keep them away. Having a youth munch meant they were more likely to show up, and gave us more of an opportunity to show them the scene wasn't as scary as all that after all. Not that younger people can't be obnoxious (far from it) or that older people can't be fantastically decent, but in our experience it was easier to have polite firm confrontations within the group when we had a similar age range.
Now, those were the main reasons in our experiences here that we created the youth events in the first place. The Whippersnappers was/is for people 18-35 and their lovers; it has no membership fee, no central organization, and was DIY in nature. You want a party, you make it happen. There was a lot of complaining when we started it, but it's been here for 2 years and is still going.
Now, how does it all work in practice? We stage "takeovers" of other events- gather a group of 5-30 to go to a party that isn't specifically for youth and play/socialize. This allows the youth to feel like they have a safety net (there's usually some newbies, and some more experienced folks) and allows our group and other groups to mingle. We have found that in practice, it doesn't feel very exclusionary, because we go to other classes and parties, just generally as a small group. We also have had low price classes, often at least 50% less than standard, usually taught by one of our members. This sort of skill share bonds us and allows us to learn from each other, along with helping us have more of a handle on public play when we do that.
We have a lot of crossover between our group and Society of Janus or SM Odyssey, both groups that are open to anyone over 18. Many of us go to multiple munches, some youth oriented and some not. Many of us teethed on the comfort of the Whippersnappers or something similar before moving into the scene. I think having that group helped us draw people who were curious in, especially if they were new and nervous. It can be an incredibly intimidating environment, in my experience! It also allows us to filter a little people who were sampling and not really interested, which we noticed happens a lot in college. Lower prices seemed to equal less entitled attitudes.
I hope that my/our experiences in SF will help clear up a little as to why under 35 groups are beneficial to the community at large, or at least have been here.
| 28 Jun 07, 12:22 PM Prunesquallor UK(RG), 6 yrs |
As someone who is - um - a tad over thirty-five, and as someone who has experienced age discrimination on this site, I am made slightly uneasy by your posting. As you say, discrimination doesn't always have malicious intentions, but in my opinion it usually leads situations of malice. What makes it different from a male only or female only event which sometimes lets trans people in and sometimes doesn't? Quite a lot actually. As you point out, the lines between genders are blurry, and if you try to divide them, then you are likely to have difficulty. But you are either over 35 or you are not. Once you hit that 35th birthday you no longer cut the mustard - you are out. I am actually not in favour of single-sex events anyway, and would never go to one. Actually I have discovered that all of the gay or lesbian events I have attended, where you might expect this kind of discrimination, have been completely open and welcoming to heterosexuals, even those of the 'wrong' sex. It seems to me that our society suffers enough from alienation anyway. We have already cut off our children from real contact with the adult world, apart from their parents, and all they receive is the distorted world-view of the media. We are seeing the results of that as they grow older, with an unprecedented level of violence and self-destructive behaviour, and it will only get worse. Anything that cuts off one sector of society from another contributes to this alienation. It is one thing inviting a group of friends, all of whom might well be under 35. It is quite another to enforce this kind of discrimination publicly. Your most revealing comment was about those people in their late 40s who interfere in other people's play. There is *no* behaviour pattern that comes as a result of age. Some of the most arrogant people I have met have been old and some of them have been young. Indeed, there is an argument that most of us get the arrogance beaten out of us as we get older by the vicissitudes of life. That sentence, to me, seemed to show the irrational origin of discrimination. 'Tolerance' is a word that is misunderstood by many. It does not mean broadmindedness. If you like foreigners or gay people you are not being tolerant. If you *dislike* foreigners or gay people and nevertheless give them room to breathe and don't discriminate against them, then you are being tolerant. If you hate cigarette smoke but allow people to smoke in your presence you are being tolerant. If you politely read a posting like this one which is boring the pants off you, you are being tolerant. In my opinion setting up any group which is age restricted - unless it is for a specific age-related purpose - is intolerant. And I really do feel that is something the world could do with a lot less of at the present time. Anyway, thank you for a thought-provoking posting, and I hope my response hasn't been too strong. I have discovered, writing this, that it is an issue I do feel quite strongly about. Edited 28 Jun 07, 2:53 PM by Prunesquallor | |||||
| 28 Jun 07, 6:17 PM Purrverse US, 6 yrs |
I compare the two because age is, first of all, not always obvious on sight, secondly because age is constantly changing/not fixed, and thirdly because the usual cutoff of 35 is just a number everyone's used... kind of like how out here, a female-only event tends to let in trans women and ftms, but it could choose to just let in mtfs, or those carrying feminine energy. The line is based, usually, on the comfort level of the organizers.
This isn't true here, so I haven't had experience with that. I cannot go to a men's only party unless I'm dressing/identifying as trans, binding my breasts, and packing. Queer events are fairly open- still, to focus is on queer play, and while they don't not let heterosexuals in, they aren't where the focus is. That's been how play parties out here have worked for the U35- focused on under 35, but not exclusive. The munches are for U35 and their lovers, so we have some older folks who generally have been members themselves, so the cutoff comes when their lover is also over 35... which is usually when they feel ready to leave anyway.
See, here, I agree with you, but I don't think I get across fully why I think the U35 munches would actually lead to less alienation. That's been my experience, anyway, which is really the only thing I can speak to- it may be totally different in the UK, and I'll have to see when I get there. Here, having the U35 munches means way, way more people come out to ask questions about their kinks, to meet other kinky people, and to feel more comfortable with themselves. They may come to parties, they may not, but they tend to teeth on our group before going to a more organized and serious one, like Society of Janus. Since we don't have fees or anything, a person who's curious can attend cheap classes and free munches and see if it's to their liking- SoJ has membership fees and a mandatory orientation, so if you're unsure if it's your thing, you're more committed. We've definitely expanded the community this way, and the U35/lovers parties have been huge. Because we help establish an initial comfort level, we also tend to have well-received takeovers (sort of like what you mention below about having a group of U35s go somewhere together informally). These takeovers give people a chance to feel out the scene with a bunch of people around their age group. But this is where the best part happens- a bunch of U35s, new to the scene, end up meeting a lot of the older players this way and it creates bonding between the U35s and the O35s. Many people in our group, especially at first, were too nervous to go out to parties until they had our group to go with. After one or two takeovers, they went to whatever parties they wanted, because they didn't tend to feel the need for the specific takeovers. So it's been our experience that having this group leads to a larger, more connected community instead of a smaller, segmented, private scene. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
I wonder if that's cultural. Here, it is definitely a pattern, similar to the single guy pattern- a single guy will almost always be the one causing trouble. Younger arrogant people get polite warnings at the munches, and tend to feel embarrassed and not go, or they shape up. O35s (usually 045s) have definitely, just in my experience, been the ones to grab for me without permission, or tell me I'm submitting wrong... even if I'm doing exactly what my Dominant likes. When confronted kindly and compassionately, they have tended to not be apologetic, but haughty and kinkier-than thou. And that's been the experience of many a U35 here... we can certainly tell stories to back up our feelings in that area. However, maybe that happens less in the UK. Hope so!
::grin:: Well, I'm guessing from the response it didn't bore the pants off you, cause you made a lot of great, well-thought out points! I guess I feel the proof tends to be in the pudding after 6 months- if a discriminatory party/munch takes off, at some level, it was desired. If it doesn't, then awesome, it's not needed. I hope that the U35 groups make sure to cross pollinate out there the way we do here- none of us will be U35 forever! Additionally, the way it tends to work here is that it's age group FOCUSED, not ONLY. I don't check ids at my door, but I do make sure to inform people who look significantly older that it's a youth-focused party... which has been generally equivalent with louder music, a little more socializing, and higher energy (also a lot more BDSM/sex crossover, which doesn't happen at the other parties). This group has definitely come out with some great leaders in the general kinky scene out here, too... something that, since we're throwing the fourth U35 convention in the US, is something we're grateful for. Maybe it's different in the UK- I've noticed there seems to be less O35 judgment, at least on the boards, there's less of the negative "oh, well, when I was your age" types of attitude. If so, awesome! But here in the US, it's been a godsend. | |||||
| 28 Jun 07, 9:44 PM Prunesquallor UK(RG), 6 yrs |
A couple of points. When I was talking about a posting boring the pants off you, please note that I was referring to my posting - not yours.  Yes, it seems as though our experience has been different. Certainly, had my local group discriminated against older people in this way, I might never have come into the scene, so this is something that has personal relevance to me. Because of some of the responses in another thread, I am not sure this is a cultural issue. But you will be able to make your own mind up when you get here! | |||||
| 30 Jun 07, 1:04 PM sublondon40 UK, 6 yrs |
I'm 41, if someone wants a party for under thirty fives and i'm not invited, I think the decent think to do is to respect their wishes. The SF lady has given plenty of good perfectly sensible and sane reasons why it's a good idea and a better vibe for many. Everyone in the UK should support her input. If you're older than 35 and feel uncomfortable that the yoiungsters aren't letting you in then you're insecure. Deal with that issue, don't make it someone else's. Everybody discriminates, but this discrimination is perfectly healthy, it's about freedom to do what you want with your body and we should all support it. Same as if we have mature events, the younger people wouldn't get much air-play to tell us its wrong. David | |||||
| 30 Jun 07, 1:24 PM sublondon40 UK, 6 yrs |
Tolerance is often about really looking at both sides of the coin. You can't get on a podium about the virtue of tolerance when you're saying that an U35 gathering is intolerable. The tolerant thing to do is, surprisingly enough to tolerate people and to respect their wishes, even when they discriminate in acceptable ways, and of course that's the heart of the matter. What discrimination is acceptable? Obviously we need an equal society, but political correctness belongs in the realm of politics. People outside public office or positions of authority, doing as they please should be allowed to discriminate, for the simple reason that it gives them safety. Our society does need more tolerance and more respect. What you're saying is akin to "Black people shouldn't live in a ghetto, they should integrate." If you're an Asian person, in Britain, living in an Asian area gives you very real safety, there's nothing discriminatory about it. If that's what they wish to do then their wishes should be respected, even if the ghetto makes us feel uneasy or excluded, that's our feeling. The U35 groups going to age neutral events shows an intent to integrate, it all sounds very liberal to me and from someone in a community that has been dealing with discrimination issues now for a long time and frankly the younger poster here has a more mature outlook, which is what the frightening pace of social development brings us too of course. |
