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Charliegrrl: Censoring pro-porn feminism (94)

This post is on the BDSM Activism web board.

Sun 1 Apr 07, 11:37 AM
verte
UK(E), 8 yrs

http://charliegrrl.wordpress.com/2007/03/30/when...

With Tanos's permission, I would like to encourage people from IC to reply to her blog, but also post replies in this thread, in case she's frightened of debating with us and doesn't make them visible.

We will not be bullied into silence.

Edited Mon 2 Apr 07, 5:47 PM by verte

1 Apr 07, 12:37 PM
Syphax
UK(S), 7 yrs

Her blog makes a, shall we say, interesting, read. She seems to be tackling 'feminism' from an anti-men point of view, rather than a pro-women one.

I don't think she's quite got the point of feminism.

Syphax - Control Freak
http://www.sheffieldmunch.org.uk

1 Apr 07, 12:40 PM
doulos
UK(SW), 6 yrs

I dunno. I sometimes imagine that feminism has become rotten to the core. Not that the label shouldn't try to be reclaimed but it looks like it has become just another off-shoot of crypto-paternalistic authoritarian Marxist ideology.

Syphax wrote:
Her blog makes a, shall we say, interesting, read. She seems to be tackling 'feminism' from an anti-men point of view, rather than a pro-women one.

I don't think she's quite got the point of feminism.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken

Edited 3 Apr 07, 12:11 AM by doulos

1 Apr 07, 12:56 PM
MasterVilosSlave
UK(CB), 6 yrs

I posted

MVS wrote:
Hi, I'm one of those poor misguided women who enjoys submission and rape fantasies (fantasising about male and female dominance and rape). Strangely I'm an incredibly happy fulfilled person.

What I think we need to establish is the difference between rape-play and actual rape. There is not a woman in the world who would actually WANT to be raped. Rape-play or rape fantasies are just that - fantasies between two consenting adults (or more!), aimed at satisfying a deeply held urge.

Just to balance this out I know more males who are submissive and have rape fantasies than females. It's not an unnatural thing, nor is it caused by the media or society.

Telling women (actually scratch that - lets say 'anyone' from now on because it is not a uniquely female phenomina) they aren't allowed to voice their deeply held feelings (and some of these feeling start from such a young age) because they are women? So is it okay for men to voice them? Are you saying that women should repress their innate sexuality but it's okay for men to have the same sexuality out in the open?

I'd describe myself as a feminist in that I think women should have the same rights as men. Women have the RIGHT to express their innate sexuality in whatever way they see fit without condemnation from their peers.

And as for this oppressive law about violent pornogrphy - it's hurting the sexually liberated women who like to keep polaroids in the top drawer more than it's hurting sites like 'necrobabes'.

I, personally am a happy, liberated affectionate sexually submissive women. I am law abiding, conscientious when it comes to recycling, animal cruelty and the like. But I'm the one who's going to be going to jail. Why don't they save the crimiminal convictions and jail cells for people who are actually a 'danger to society' which is what they were meant for.

“A gentleman is someone who raises his hat before he beats his wife.” - British joke (ca. 1920)

1 Apr 07, 12:58 PM
Jenis
UK(N), 7 yrs

It amazes me when a supposed *feminist* chooses to try and oppress what other women choose to do, because they don't understand it or agree with it.

Rape fantasys are actually fairly common (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy) so 36% of women have had a rape fantasty, that is quite a large number of women.

You take offence at the original blurb for having rape play in, at least if its in there people can make an informed choice about whether they attend or not.

The goverments plans to criminalise violent pornography are not black and white, consentual play between 2 adults can sometimes look violent, especially picture wise as you dont get a context of what is going on. So I have a picture of me topless with someone with a knife held to my throat, other people could see that as violent porn, if the police and court took that opinion its 3 years on the sex offenders regsiter, possibly prison, fines, etc for me, having a picture of me doing something I enjoy.

Life doesnt work in black and white.

Reply put up (also on LJ) xx

First, and above all other rules,Do No Harm
Stronger, harder, worth more than that

1 Apr 07, 1:21 PM
toesuckasub
UK(M), 5 yrs

I'm a man - and yet I posted this reply:

I realise that I'm not exactly qualified to reply to a post about feminism because I'm a man.

But I am a man who has pretty extreme fantasies at times about women being violent and cruel to me. I am also a man who has been deeply respectful and supportive of women's rights and freedoms all through my life.

It took me a long while to come to terms with bdsm couples where the man is the dominant one and the woman is submissive, because it seemed wrong to me at first - and because my own inclinations are the other way around (the woman dominant and the man submissive). But I've come to understand that some women desire from men the same things that I desire from women - and so I've come to accept it.

'Rape play' is something I have heard about, although it is too hardcore, edge-play thing for me. But it is just that - 'play', a fantasy scenario acted out and not at all the same thing as real rape, which is non-consensual and not subject to the same kind of careful negotiation beforehand.

Rape play has as little to do with real rape as acting out a fantasy of being dominated by a police woman has to do with actually being arrested and sexually abused.

"I can't conceal the way I'm healed, the pleasure I feel when I have to deal with the mercy in you" Depeche Mode 'Mercy in you'
Fellow foot fetishists - check out www.asff.com - I guarantee you'll like it!

1 Apr 07, 1:33 PM
Backdooruk
UK(BA), 12 yrs

Syphax wrote:
I don't think she's quite got the point of feminism.

I agree. However I'm not going to bother to post to here blog: It's clear from the entry that she isn't prepared to read or listen to opposing points of views. It's a symptom of fanaticism, not particularly feminist fanaticism but any political fanaticism: People get to worked up about their idealism to see that what they are doing is harming real people, not the idealized fantasy people they believe they are talking for.

- Chris

"I have made this letter longer, because I have not had the time to make it shorter." - Blaise Pascal

1 Apr 07, 1:34 PM
doulos
UK(SW), 6 yrs

Not seeing any of these appear. My reply:

“If inclusive in the definition of feminism, is promoting the eroticisation of rape and other forms of violence against women, doing 'rape role play' with men and enjoying porn in which women are being abused, how are we to ever envisage a world free from male violence against women..?”

Urrrr… because one is fantasy and one is reality.

Your argument is like saying “How can we possibly stop the War in Iraq while people are watching Star Wars all over the place!”

The two only bare a phenomenal resemblance and are in fact completely seperate issues with completely distinct causes and consequences. One issue is about protecting women (and other groups) from violence, the other about allowing women (and other groups) to experience their fantasies (no matter how distasteful others find them) in a safe environment: i.e. through imagery, narrative and with consenting participants.

Your argument relies on the suppressed premise that these fantasies are dirty and have to be combated through censorship because they don't fit your particular world view of consensual human sexuality. And that is what we object to in your argument.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken

1 Apr 07, 1:37 PM
toesuckasub
UK(M), 5 yrs

doulos wrote:
...</snip>

well put

"I can't conceal the way I'm healed, the pleasure I feel when I have to deal with the mercy in you" Depeche Mode 'Mercy in you'
Fellow foot fetishists - check out www.asff.com - I guarantee you'll like it!

1 Apr 07, 2:05 PM
ThedaVamp
UK, 6 yrs

Mine.

CHE Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. April 1st, 2007 at 1:02 pm

As an active member of the BDSM community, a self identified dominant woman, a degree carrying freelance professional hard working member of the community, no criminal record, involved in various charities and non for profits, animal rescue and women's groups, including sexual reproductive rights. I am a feminist and you might find it unusual that I too fantasise about rape.

It is a fantasy.

Nothing more and nothing less.

I 'get off' on violent pornography.

I'm not mentally ill. I don't hurt people unconsentually.

I signed the petition against the criminalisation for possession of 'extreme' pornography.

And I take it extremely personally when you make the assumption that my 'submission is so deeply ingrained' that I'm taught to eroticise it???

I can't imagine anything further from the truth.

Having attended various feminist conferences and studied Feminist Studies, the one resounding element that I find irritating is women feeling that these events are some kind of therapy circle. They aren't. Women need to take responsibility for their own lives and successes. We can't rely on men to do this for us. And no man is responsible for my sexual desires, practices, my fantasies or my successes.

See Daddy? Sinners have soul too.

1 Apr 07, 2:33 PM
doulos
UK(SW), 6 yrs

Brilliant.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken