Posted by cerrynn1 on Wed 22 Sep 04, 8:21 AM to cerrynn1's blog.
Much of the debate over "limits" and how they should best be handled seemed to stem from people having different conceptions of what the word "limit" means in this context. If a Dominant and a submissive were discussing "limits", and had not clearly defined the key term(s) involved, possibly some communication misfires might result. In fact, the weblog debate of the last couple of days might just serve as a metaphor for what can and all too often does happen in "real life" interpersonal communication. A misunderstanding, a communications misfire, led to anger, bitterness and bad feeling. In this case, there was a positive outcome. Some excellent essays have been posted by bloggers on both sides of the debate, but more importantly at least two people struggled, not to reach agreement, but rather to communicate more effectively. By all indications they succeeded. My sincere compliments to both PaganDiver and ShadowRose for sharing their attempts to better understand the other's point of view ... *well done* to you both. The following is NOT an attempt to re-open the argument ... rather, I wanted to share some of our thoughts on how talking about "limits" can contribute to expanding those limits, and consequently to experiencing more intense and more exciting scenes.
For Matou and me, and for quite a few other people we know, "hard limits" are things much like what Jezzebelle listed ... the things that one will NOT do and will NOT consider doing, ever, usually for ethical, moral or health-related reasons. Our current set of *hard* limits is: no kids, no animals, no scat, no dead people.
Yet, yet ... even these can change. We know, because one of our previously held, *very* hard limits, has fallen aside in the course of our relationship. When we were first getting to know each other and exploring each other's interests, we also had a hard limit about No Blood. No play that intentionally broke the skin, and if skin were broken and blood were accidentally spilt in the course of, say, caning, the scene was to come to a stop.
I won't bore you with the details of how that limit changed, but it did. We learned about needles and a few other forms of "edge play" from some very experienced, responsible, and creative practitioners ... and learned about how rewarding, in the right conditions and with the right partner, this kind of play *can* be. We also talked about it a great deal, and still do. We don't do these things all the time: needles (or temporary- or play-piercing, if you prefer) are very much a "special occasion" activity for us. But they are very special indeed, and I am delighted that they are now part of our "repertoire".
I really can't imagine any of our other *truly* HARD limits changing in the way the former "no blood" limit did. There are other things which we don't do and probably will never do, not because they are "hard limits" but rather because they simply do not turn us on (watersports and age play come to mind as examples in this category). We have no objection to others doing these things; we simply choose not to do them ourselves.
But then there are *other* kinds of limits. The word has multiple meanings, even within the context of the BDSM scene. Occasionally Matou will say, after a particularly intense scene, that he could tell he had me "close to my limits". By this, he does *not* mean that we were straying into territory where necrophilia might occur! <weg> Rather, he means that in that scene he took me close to the point where I might have felt compelled to use my safeword. And here, I think, is where one point PaganDiver made just might come in: play -- at least *our* play -- really isn't exclusively for the sub. Or keeping it personal, it's not just for me. The dominant's enjoyment -- Matou's enjoyment -- is equally important. And for many dominants, one of the most rewarding aspects of what we do is linked to taking the sub to places s/he has never been before: in other words, expanding the sub's limits, mentally, emotionally and physically. We were talking about this yesterday, and Matou gave me an example. It's one I'm familiar with, because he's done it to me on more than one occasion, and I know he's done it with others, too. So ...
Picture this: A scene is nearing its conclusion. The submissive has taken [x] number of strokes with, say, the cane (or whatever other intense implement you fancy). The submissive is pretty darned close to wanting -- no, *needing* -- to stop. The submissive is in fact a panting, quivering, blubbering pool of jelly by now ... and the Dominant pauses, comes up close, and whispers, slowly, softly, but in that tone of voice which means that disagreement is out of the question: "I want you to take one -- more -- stroke. For *me*."
When Matou does this to me, that "one more stroke" may - - or may not -- be the hardest stroke of the evening, but that is irrelevant. *This* kind of dynamic goes beyond simple SM ... it's pure D/s. I might have been right on the edge of safewording, but when Matou says something like this to me, in circumstances like those described, all thoughts of safewording vanish. All that exists is him, and my desire to please him. To submit to him.
The final stroke comes ... the one I thought I couldn't handle. But I *do* handle it ... and afterwards, I feel *great*. I feel like I've accomplished something -- no, that's not it. I feel like *we* have accomplished something. Because as I said above, this is not just about the submissive. It's not just about me. It's about Matou as well, and *for* Matou as well. He takes pleasure in my response, in my submission, in the fact that I want above all else to please him, to make him proud of me. And I take pleasure in knowing that I have done something I didn't think I could do, but moreover because I have pleased my beloved Dominant, and that he *is* proud of me.
It's a wonderfully holistic phenomenon, a true win-win situation.
Oh dear ... I'm melting just thinking about it. Back to the point I was trying to make ...
I find myself thinking that a submissive who wants his/her Dominant to be in essence a service provider -- only doing the things s/he wants, only when s/he wants them, and only to the degree of intensity that s/he dictates -- might in fact be happier just hiring a massage therapist. All kidding aside, I honestly don't know any submissives personally who micro-manage their tops or dominants to that extent, although I certainly have *heard* of such things happening. In my opinion, *if* such people do exist and really *do* do such things, they are missing out on a lot of the fun of BDSM.
Furthermore, if the submissive uses the term "limit" or "hard limit" to describe activities that s/he doesn't want to do because they make him/her nervous, or because the pain from said activities is not the kind of pain that the sub enjoys ... *and* if the Dominant doesn't know that for this particular submissive the word "limit" means "something I don't like and therefore don't want you to do to me" ... AND if the submissive, when the Dominant tries to "push" one of these supposed "limits", accuses him/her of "Not Respecting My Limits!!" ... well. Hmmm. I can imagine things getting somewhat confusing, with misunderstandings, anger, hurt feelings, and all sorts of other unpleasant interpersonal consequences springing up like mushrooms.
The only answer, the only way to avoid all of that, is lots and lots of *talking* and an equal amount of *listening* by all parties concerned. Communication. Not just when the people involved are first getting to know each other, but on an ongoing basis. If the communication is consistent and effective, then the submissive will come to trust the Dominant (all this is assuming, of course, that the dom/me in question is deserving of trust), and the Dominant will, just as importantly, come to trust that the submissive will not, say, safeword prematurely or for frivolous reasons. They will come to know each other's desires and strengths and weaknesses as well as they know their own. They will know just how far they can go ... and often that is very far indeed.
This is the time when things can *really* get exciting, and mind-expanding, and life-changing. I've been so fortunate to experience all this ... but it's all within the reach of every single one of us. Communication is the first step to getting there.
To Matou ... this weblog is as much yours as mine, inspired as it has been by your thoughts, your words, and what you've taught me throughout our relationship. I love you more than I can say. Ai shiteru, Sensei ... itsumo.
*your* cerrynn{M}
Edited Wed 22 Sep 04, 9:50 AM by cerrynn1
